Dear Readers,
It’s great to have you here at Trials and Truths!
On July 3rd, Frank Parlato published an article informing his Frank Report audience about the launch of our new website. The positive comments we received from his readers have been very heartwarming.
Many of Frank’s readers had all kinds of questions for me about my time in NXIVM. If you have a question, please leave it here in the comments section of this post – and I will be sure to reply on a timely basis. Go ahead, ask me anything! (Well, almost anything 😊).
All you need to do to leave your question is register your email address HERE (You can also leave other information on the Registration Form if you want).
We are also pleased by the large number of followers of a Reddit thread about NXIVM who have read about the Trials & Truths. A few weeks ago, we noticed a post there entitled “What’s the single most interesting thing about NXIVM not widely known?” I will be happy to talk about those things as well.
Thank you for your interest and support,
Kristin K
Hello, there and thanks for your information – I’ve certainly picked up something new from right here. I did then again experience several technical issues using this website, as I had to reload the web site a lot of times previous so I could get it to load properly. I had been pondering whether your web hosting is OK? Not that I am complaining, but sluggish loading circumstances instances will sometimes have an effect on your placement in Google and could damage your high-quality rating if ads and ***********|advertising|advertising|advertising and *********** with Adwords. Well I’m adding this RSS to my e-mail and will look out for much extra of your respective interesting content. Make sure you postagain soon..
May I handily just say what a help to uncover someone that actually understands what they are discussing over the internet. You completely comprehend how to bring a difficulty to lighthearted and create it important. A lot more people in fact need to look at this and comprehend this side of the story. Its surprising youre not more popular in the past you completely have the gift.
Hey Kristin this is Mike, I remember great times taking classes with you from Nancy on NLP and Milton Erickson before she met Kieth. I’m sorry you went through this. Apparently getting kicked out of ESP in the beginning for asking too many questions was the better route. I still can’t believe Kieth perverted our group and so many good people.
Kristin,
Would love your take on the recent Nxivm-related court papers that were released. They detail some of Keith’s staunchest remaining followers lying to the BOP. And Keith’s continuing discipline issues for not following prison rules and protocols. Keith continues to play the victim and a fact-based reporting would be helpful. Maybe your partner will cover it if you’re not interested? There’s a reader base who would really dive into it!
Could you also please post about the newly revealed thousands of pages in Depp V. Heard?
Thank you for your time and consideration. Hope you are well.
Kristin — I just read your new article on the Proud Boys “cult” and there does seem to be some similarities to SOP. The silly rules and the dangerous misogyny. Thanks.
Plus, Roger Stone was involved with the PBs, and you mentioned his connection to NXIVM. Could you elaborate? Roger’s pal, Frank P, downplayed this.
I will be getting into Roger Stone’s work with NXIVM in my next article. I hope to have it up on Monday.
Do you know if such Nxivm outreach projects like A Capella, GBD, the college survey, Juicy Peach, One Asian, etc ever were successful in bringing in new young recruits? And was there any similar outreach project to bring in SOP wannabees, or was it successful thru word of mouth alone?
A Capella, GBD, the college survey, and One Asian were all total failures. (Juicy Peach? Am not aware of that one.) Although I don’t think GBD had any real connection to NXIVM. That’s a kind of myth driven by the desire for clickbait associated with Kristin Kreuk’s name.
SOP was a huge success. All word of mouth, and most enrollees were past or current NXIVM students.
Here’s some info on Juicy Peach. Like for other projects (A Capella, College Survey), Keith used his actress celebs whose show biz jobs included doing promotions. Instead of for a movie or TV show, they were promoting a cult. Frank P thought this was nefarious and the actresses “useful idiots.”
Here is a YouTube video on Juicy Peach
https://frankreport.com/2019/10/14/allison-mack-and-kristin-kreuk-started-little-known-nixvm-raniere-secret-recruiting-company-to-lure-female-artists-called-juicy-peach/
I’m telling you. Juicy Peach was nothing. Just because it was on the Frank Report? I was there. Not accurate. Kristin Kreuk was not closely involved in NXIVM ever. I was very friendly with her boyfriend and I lived next door to Keith. These kinds of things are NXIVM myths.
You were “very friendly” with Mark Hildreth.
— Did you notice any change in him during his years in the misogynist SOP? Enough to stop being friends?
I stopped having any social contact with everyone in NXIVM once I learned about what was being taught in SOP. I pulled away from all my friends in anticipation of an immediate escape. To me, SOP was an insane misogynistic evil that I could not have any part of. Ultimately, I had to run from Keith’s army of men (and all the women who supported them) with literally only the clothes on my back. The fact that no one has reported about SOP in the mainstream media shocks me every day.
Wow! Publishers and readers are even more eager for your report on the evils of SOP.
I may have missed this…but what year did you escape NXIVM?
I fled Keith, NXIVM, and SOP in February 2014. I learned of what was happening in SOP in August – September 2013. I thought I could manage a graceful exit but in the end, I came to realize there was no way out. I just had to run.
Can the website keep some replies to replies to replies from showing up
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We’ll ask our website designer, the inimitable “MadAddie”, and get back to you on this.
Ben – (and to anyone reading this),
If you don’t mind, if the thread is getting too long, post a new question/reply and reference the previous discussion for readers.
Thank you!
Kristin,
What was a typical (if there were such a thing) day like for you in Albany?
What was a ‘best day’ in Albany?
What was a ‘worst day”?
Did you all (living in Albany) celebrate holidays (besides Vanguard Week ha, ha) together? Can you tell us about one such occasion?
Was Keith coloring his hair for a long time? He seems vain physically. Was he?
Did most of you leave Albany to see family (if one had family) ever?
Besides volleyball, star trek and a Capella, what did you do for fun in Albany?
Did you have any practices from ESP/Nxivm that while neither good or bad necessarily were hard to break free from when you wanted to? Same with the language. Or intrusive thoughts.
What’s something you always thought was kinda stupid that became a “thing” in the group? (Besides SOP/One Asian which is evil)
We know about the lip kissing with Keith, was it a pretty touchy-feely environment overall?
What’s a fairly harmless thing in society in general, that became taboo in Nxivm?
Did people really have to pay a dollar just for the privilege of being in the Karner Road building?
It seems as though everything was monetized in Nxivm. And charity was sorta verboten? What else was charged for that might surprise us?
What is the worst thing a person in the Nxivm world could say that would surprise us? Like a real verbal faux pas in that community?
What’s the angriest you’ve seen Keith?
Did you ever see a person try to hang with y’all in Albany that was just rejected or iced out of the community for what you saw as unfair, bad or superficial reasons?
How paranoid was Keith? The community as a whole?
What kind of music do you like? What’s your favorite snack? Ha, ha just lightening things up.
Fully do not expect answers to all (or any) of these questions soon or ever – your choice! Just some general prompts for maybe future stories…
Thanks!
Hi, Humble – This is a LOT of questions. Can you whittle it down to your top 3?
Kristin,
Ok #1 choice is the following bonus question:
What is your understanding of Keith’s quest for a “virgin successor”?
Even if you never directly heard about this search for a “virgin successor” from Keith Raniere,
What is your take on the quest to locate a “virgin successor” knowing about it now?
It came up in the criminal trial. And there are lots of unanswered follow-up questions regarding it.
Thank you so much for your time.
Hope you are very well.
Oh my gosh! We are in sync. I just posted a reply before your new comment came in.
I knew nothing about this. Having heard about it, I think it’s a product of (1) the extremism sweeping through the organization sparked by the Society of Protectors and (2) a mishmash of eastern mysticism practiced by various Hindu and Buddhist leaders (and supported by their communities) throughout the New York region. I hope to be writing about the latter in the coming weeks.
Hi Humble –
What’s something you always thought was kinda stupid that became a “thing” in the group? (Besides SOP/One Asian which is evil)
Volleyball! I went like one time.
What’s the angriest you’ve seen Keith?
I never saw Keith get angry. Not once. He doesn’t have normal human emotions. Severe psychopaths’ brain activity is different. They don’t have emotions like the rest of us, if at all.
How paranoid was Keith?
Keith was completely paranoid. Or at least he acted that way. Everything and everyone were always trying to “take him down.” I think he believed that to a certain extent, although some of it was a form of manipulation of others. Anytime Keith got any kind of consequence for his actions, he went into conspiracy/paranoia mode.
Very interesting. Thank you so much for responding! And that’s really funny, did not see this reply, obviously, before posting the other question, so got a bonus question as well. Thanks again!
Kristin,
You have mentioned psychopaths. And you’ve clearly done much research.
There’s something that has never added up when reading popular theories on psychopathy. Maybe you can lend your knowledge to help better understand?
If a psychopath ” feels nothing” why do they then choose so much evil? And destruction?
Some researchers theorize, ” it’s so that the psychopath will then, “feel something”. But isn’t that contradictory? If a psychopath “can’t feel”?
Can they only feel whilst being negative and cruel? No empathy doesn’t necessarily equal a desire to hurt automatically, right? In a situation where one feels less empathetic it’s more, “meh” then a” must cause maximum pain now” impulse. More, “who cares.” Vs ” must destroy”. You know?
Also, why would a neutral or a non-feeling state lead to dark harmful impulse? Why not a kind one? All things being equal? Those “psychopaths feel nothing” theories have just never made sense.
It seems like those theories originate from researchers with a more neuro typical brain trying to make sense of a totally different brain that they don’t really understand at all and yet still trying to comprehend through using all the wrong barometers.
Like trying to use a car manual to bake a cake.
Hope this wasn’t confusing. Interested in your thoughts on the topic. Thanks!
I think that psychopaths feel nothing like normal people “feel”. They go for adrenaline and a sense of satisfaction/supremacy when they pull off a con. So, when I say they don’t feel, perhaps that’s a misnomer. Keith once said to me, “For a psychopath, life is like a video game. If you have to cut off a child’s head or murder a dog, you do it to get to the next level.”
I think they still have a reward center in their brains but it’s not something you would associate with normal or healthy emotions. I spent 24 years pretty close with Keith. He had a completely flat affect at all times. I thought it was a reflection of his degree of enlightenment for many years. He never reacted to things. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t motivated. Something in his brain triggered satisfaction (which might be analogous to emotion) when he got away with dastardly deeds.
I hope that explains. I intend to write about this at length in future posts.
Thank you so much for your response. Was confident you would have some insights that would be helpful and really look forward to a more in-depth post on this topic.
I will be writing about this extensively. It comes up a lot in current events.
Your book has a lot of possibilities to impact different segments of the population. Your publicist will have fun promoting it/you. From what you’ve so far told us, here’s the low hanging fruit:
– A study on psychopaths
– How SOP so quickly took off and the misogynistic agenda that people happily latched on to.
– Your story of overcoming abuse, near death, and ultimately prevailing
– Provide insider NXIVM information and a look behind the curtain
The prevalence of psychopaths and their effects on our culture is something I think I will continue to highlight. It’s an underreported factor in human relations and affects all things, I think.
How SOP took off is emblematic of many other things happening in world events. Especially related to Donald Trump. I hope to show those parallels in my writing. I have another article going live on Monday that addresses this topic.
I don’t think of myself as “ultimately prevailing”. Quite the reverse. I think more in terms of “Having learned from my struggles, is there any way I can pay that education forward, meaningfully?”
Yes, I definitely have a lot of insider information for those who want to look behind the curtain. If I can contextualize that to a greater good/learning, I’ll write about it. Otherwise, who cares? I’m not that interested in focusing on myself and my history. Being popular or vindicated doesn’t get me out of bed in the morning. Contributing to something more important than myself individually – yeah, that I’m interested in. I’m an idealist, I guess.
Kristin,
There’s an undercurrent to the more extreme parts of ESP/Nxivm/SOP and JNESS that seemed designed to control and eliminate fairly normal emotional responsiveness.
It presents as though intended to remove the uniquely emotionally human element from the experience of being an individual person.
While that kind of abatement of emotions CAN be an effective tool in certain decision making and executive planning type situations and probably desirable if one is having extreme trouble with relationships and controlling outbursts etc.
It also seems to fundamentally ignore that we are here on earth as spiritual beings (or not) to have a human experience.
The DOS rules about self-denial and general practice of subjugation of natural impulses and intuition and blind allegiance and obedience disguised as discipline in SOP further highlight this desire to become almost machine or robot like.
Have wondered if on some level Keith was trying to break down and rebuild those disciples most loyal into an image of himself?
Cutting the most devoted followers off from their feelings, family, best impulses, intuition, and self.
And attempting to re-make them into an extension of Keith’s own (perceived) superior self.
A self, like Keith, who lacks typical empathy, boundaries and as you’ve written most common human feelings and motivations.
Just from the outside the curriculum did not appeal because it’s not a world view aspired to but can see why others might believe it would “help” them.
It just appears a very joyless existence that was prescribed to the community, by the leader, Keith. Who had reportedly stated, ” He who has the most joy wins”.
If Keith truly couldn’t feel joy. And believed his own proclamation about winning thru a joy competition…
Maybe Keith could not “win” by creating his own joy? Only by taking the joy of others?
Then Keith would win with his empty coffer by making others’ cabinets even more depleted of joy than his own?
Sort of a “win” for Keith thru others “losing”?
Thanks for your precious time responding.
Humble, watch for my future writings. I will address some of these things at length.
What would you tell someone to do who feels susceptible to the same type of coercive control tactics and cult type groups?
That’s a really important question. Let me think about it, and get back to you.
Darcey –
This is a really important question. I’ve been thinking about it round the clock since you posted it. If you don’t mind, I’d like to do a whole article in reply. I can get it up in the next week or two.
I want to answer this question in a meaningful and thorough way.
Absolutely, addressing the topic in a post would be brilliant! I appreciate it.
Kristin,
First and foremost, thank you for gifting us with your experiences and knowledge from your time in ESP. None of us are entitled to know your personal information, although some commenters here seem to think so..😒
I wanted to ask you a few questions.
(1) If you could say anything to Marianna, what would that be?
(2) Is Nancy repentant/aware of her wrongdoing in your opinion?
(3) Did KR have bad intentions from the get-go?
(4) Do you ever miss the ‘good times’ in Albany, before you were victimized by KRs abuse?
Thank you, Kristin!
Mary, thank you for your support!
(1) If you could say anything to Marianna, what would that be?
Embrace the world and find out what interests you. What do you care about outside of Keith and NXIVM? What makes you tick? Why? There is a big world of creativity, ideas, and inspiration beyond your past. You don’t need to negate your past or take a position for or against Keith to explore new possibilities. Go for it. 🙂
(2) Is Nancy repentant/aware of her wrongdoing in your opinion?
No. Based on her presentencing memorandum and intel I received from very reliable sources, I do not think she is remotely repentant. I think Nancy continues to be Nancy.
(3) Did KR have bad intentions from the get-go?
Yes, definitely! Sadly, I’m certain he is a genetic psychopath which is a physiological condition within his brain structure and quite tragic. I can’t think of many worse afflictions. If you look at my past replies here, you’ll see where I talk about this more.
(4) Do you ever miss the ‘good times’ in Albany, before you were victimized by KR’s abuse?
Unfortunately, there were very few good times for me. I was always being victimized by Keith. I stayed because I was being coerced and gaslit miserably from day one. Many years of darkness.
Kristen,
Reading about your past health problems and challenges is haunting. What you’ve been through defies words… Wishing you and your family the best in future health always!
Do you believe that you were poisoned?
Do you believe that other women close to Keith were poisoned?
Was it more of a denial of medical care and poor health guidance?
Or a combined all of the above?
Where do you believe Pam Cafritz’s final resting place to be?
Again. Wishing you and yours nothing but peace, health and great beauty in all ways.
Hi, Humble!
Thank you for your good wishes, they are much appreciated!
I think Keith may have poisoned me literally but I’m not sure. He was definitely trying to induce illness in me throughout our relationship and when I did get sick, he went to extraordinary lengths to nurture my and my son’s death. With extreme sadism. Fortunately, we’re still here.
I don’t know anything about Pam’s resting place.
Kristin,
Sorry about typo spelling your name! More importantly thank you for answering such a personal inquiry. It’s brutal. Harrowing. Nightmare inducing information to share.
It’s important that people really know that this wasn’t just “suburban vegetarians” as one Nxivm loyalist recently put it. It wasn’t a quirky or “edgy” but harmless entity. There was real evil doing.
Would you please consider writing a really comprehensive piece about SOP? And, ‘One Asian”? They are tragically under examined pieces of the whole. And there’s much misinformation about the intent and practices of this tentacle of Nxivm. Thank you so much for considering…
Also.. Please, consider writing a book! Think your story would transcend the “cult survivor” genre. It’s a journey a wide audience would take with you!
Again. All the best.
Hi Humble –
No worries about the typos spelling my name. It happens all the time.
There was real evil going on in NXIVM. The challenge is explaining the stages of how it all transpired. For many, many years Keith was doing terrible things to a tiny handful of women in secret and some questionable things in public that he was able to control the narrative on to spin to his advantage. Then in late 2012, he inspired a radical shift against women within the whole NXIVM educational system, and its community at large. Practically overnight, all embraced it.
A lot of bad things were done to me personally. I see all my personality flaws and lack of confidence that this abusive man exploited. Just like what happens to millions of women around the world every day. In that regard, I am not unique.
However, to see an otherwise vanilla group of personal growth junkies, most having high degrees of education, affluence, and opportunity adopt such extremist misogyny, so quickly, easily, and unilaterally…that has stuck with me. It’s something that went beyond me personally and wasn’t about me one way or the other. I’m still trying to wrap my mind around it to this day.
I have a series of stories I’m working on about current legal cases, that I hope will inspire discussion in a prospective way while also leaning into my experience with NXIVM. To draw parallels. I hope you and others will follow along.
I will be writing at length about SOP and One Asian in this regard.
As for a book, my partner here at Trials and Truths has been encouraging me to do this from day one. With the outpouring of interest here in response to my AMA, we’re gonna do it. Previously I would say to Joe, “Who wants to hear my story? It’s so grim.” I’m beginning to think differently. If I could write something that could contribute to things beyond myself, that I am interested in it. I welcome any more thoughts you have. Definitely share.
-Kristin K
Yes, write your book!
Got it, thanks!
I was in NXIVM for 16 years and had a relationship with Keith for 24. Would you mind giving me some snippets on areas of interest you’d like to see explored in a book?
-Kristin K
Thanks, Kristin, I know your request is for all your readers, but my main interest is the cult life that laid the groundwork for DOS, like:
1) How SOP could seem silly with readiness drills, yet also teach misogyny? How did these men demean their women, and why was it appealing to men and accepted by women?
2) What was Jness all about?
3) And how did members deal with reports that they were in a Sex Cult, and with the TU printing alleged crimes of their leader?
I think a lot of readers would want to know what it was like for you to have to keep your son’s parentage a secret, and how did that affect your son? Of course I understand you have to be concerned with protecting your son’s privacy. But it would be very interesting to learn about how you navigated this and people’s reactions/suspicions etc. How did you eventually come clean about it after denying it for years, if it is indeed true that’s what you did.
Ok, let me think about that.
BTW only a very few people in NXIVM found out Keith was my son’s father until after I left the group.
Only a handful of people knew the truth. The community at large did not.
I just wanted to add that while the stories might be grim, most of us are interested to read about how people get through horrible situations, how they coped, how they got out, how they survived after, etc. In a nutshell, I’d be very interested to read the story of how you changed from being all-in with supporting Keith, how you endured what sounds like horrific and life-threatening hardships, how you 100% realized NXIVM/KR was not something/someone you can support anymore, and how you got out. A story about how a person changed is always an interesting one.
It could be inspiring to people in all variations of abusive situations, help people who aren’t in those situations to understand better what it’s like, plus it would just be a plain ol’ fascinating read!
Completely agree. Well said.
Wow – this is really inspiring and makes me want to do it for sure. Thank you.
I’m going to explore some topics in a short form here on the site as we go along and evaluate the feedback I get.
Idea for the book – From the beginning, explain about psychopaths, Keith’s infatuation with psychopaths, your conversations with Keith about it, and how you know Keith is a psychopath. Then, throughout the book, use this as a backdrop to explain the craziness that will be the rest of the book. The book would be an amazingly informative and entertaining book about Raniere and NXIVM – but could also double as a study on psychopathic behavior.
Off the top of my head, ideas to include in the book:
– Your already typed answers to the questions here on trialsandtruths. Your input has been great, and a book would let you expand on it.
– Pre-ESP and how ESP started.
– The relationships between you, Pam, Barbara, Dawn, Karen, etc. How the introduction of the Tonis, Barbara Bs etc impacted the dynamics.
– The “Did Keith poison, suicide, attempt to have people killed?” question. Even without knowing the definitive answer, your input and details to offer will be riveting. Your personal near-death nightmares could be a part of this chapter(s).
– How Keith changed over the years.
– Many people are interested in the volleyball angle. If you have anything on that, it would be of massive interest.
– Not sure if you want to get into it (based off your bob & weave to my initial question), but your viewpoint on the Toni sideshow would be informative. (and would give you the opportunity to defend yourself to things she’s said)
– How Nancy fit into it all. Same with Lauren.
– How the Bronfmans impacted the trajectory of NXIVM and Keith.
– Your stories that have never been out as public knowledge. I think this is what everyone wants to hear and should be a major part of the book.
Are you taking pre-orders?
These are great thoughts and ideas, thanks. Tonight I’m going to create a document to start compiling reader feedback concisely. No pre-orders yet – LOL.
As for Toni, she is A LOT like Keith. A lot.
Hey Kristin, thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of these questions so openly and honestly. I’ve been ensnared by a high control group before so I know how hard it is to leave and how brave you are.
There have been so many great questions that I’ve always wanted to ask someone that others have already touched on, so I’ll try not to make you repeat yourself. So here goes some things still on my mind:
1) What do you think of the NXIVM loyalists that are still so outspoken about Keith being a framed genius? Do you think there is any possibility of truth to the things they’re saying about fake evidence, tampering, and prosecutorial misconduct?
2) Are you aware of any offshoots that have sprung up since NXIVM dissolved? I’m other words, have any loyalists started up a NXIVM 2.0 with a new name and a low-key profile?
3) Why do you think more people weren’t indicted and charged despite the fact we pretty much know, and the government spoke about them at trial, there were more people involved in the criminal aspects of NXIVM? (Thinking of Emiliano Salinas, Nicki Clyne, Sara Bronfman, and other “first line” DOS women?
Thank you again. You’re so inspiring and I love reading your answers.
Hi Will!
Here are my answers to your questions:
1) What do you think of the NXIVM loyalists that are still so outspoken about Keith being a framed genius? Do you think there is any possibility of truth to the things they’re saying about fake evidence, tampering, and prosecutorial misconduct?
I knew two of the NXIVM loyalists, Marc Elliot and Nicki Clyne, pretty well. Generally, I feel very saddened. I think they are being cruelly manipulated by Keith and they just can’t see it. I think both of them have a lot of spirit and much to add to our society. I’ve had some interactions with the others, and I don’t think any of them are bad people. I and my son have experienced enormous hardship at Keith’s hands and his loyalists are extremely hard-hearted about that. I work hard at trying to feel compassion for them, rise above it, and not take it all too personally. Some days that’s easier than others.
I’ve decided the best most honorable thing for me to do is not engage. I’m not going to look at their “evidence”, opine on it, or get involved in any way. I recommend anyone else following their story do the same. Keith is a master of getting people to ruin their lives by engaging in false or exaggerated controversies on his behalf. As a matter of fact, he is thrilled about this. I think the only satisfaction he probably gets in life now is watching his loyalists destroy themselves thinking they are doing something good. I want no part of that, and I think it’s tragic. (For more insight, look at my previous replies about psychopaths.)
I think all who are following that story should similarly disengage. Don’t add fuel to that fire. If everyone stepped away and stopped paying attention, these good intended but disastrously misguided people might wake up and move on with their lives and do good things. I hope that happens.
2) Are you aware of any offshoots that have sprung up since NXIVM dissolved? I’m other words, have any loyalists started up a NXIVM 2.0 with a new name and a low-key profile?
No, I am unaware of any such offshoots. However, if Marc Elliot woke up and did his own thing, to help Tourette’s Syndrome sufferers, I would check it out in hopes I could support it.
3) Why do you think more people weren’t indicted and charged despite the fact we pretty much know, and the government spoke about them at trial, there were more people involved in the criminal aspects of NXIVM? (Thinking of Emiliano Salinas, Nicki Clyne, Sara Bronfman, and other “first line” DOS women?
I think more people weren’t indicted because the evidence or the jurisdiction (or both) weren’t there.
Kristin — Considering how you criticized SOP, do you think the women who were “single” suffered less damage than the women whose male partner was in SOP?
The SOP wives/girlfriends would not just be demeaned in classes but also at home by the men they loved. Must have been tough for women living with SOP-men like Nippy, Marc V, and Mark H.
Yes, I think it would have been harder on the partners of men in SOP than their single counterparts. For sure.
For the three SOP-men listed, two female partners are still with them.
Actually, three female partners are still with guys who were in the SOP leadership.
It’s hard for me to comprehend. I’ve tried.
You choose, please. That’s why there is a wide selection. There was no expectation of you answering all of them or a time frame in which to respond. Short answers are fine, your time is valuable and appreciated. If one of those questions reminds you of something you’d rather not respond about, that’s cool too! Thanks.
OK, got it.
Hi KK,
It’s been a while. I have two questions that I would love to hear your opinion on.
1. Do you feel that any part of “the tech” was innovative and helpful or is it a soup of other people’s ideas designed ultimately to gaslight people from the time that they walked through the door?
How do you feel about people still using these methods as official or unofficial coaches/counsellors?
I feel that all of the information was cherry picked for its gas lighting properties. The way KR and NS taught was for pure manipulation.
The changes that people had though Rational Inquiry were due to
A. People confronting psychological issues for the first time; and
B. Placebo/nocebo effect. Meaning that there are always going to be outliers (good and bad) in any controlled group.
2. POS existed for literally years with obvious dedicated followers. What are the chances that the members top to bottom were involved with clandestine operations?
Hi Mu!
Oh my gosh, it’s so nice to hear from you. I hope you are doing well in life. 🙂
“1. Do you feel that any part of “the tech” was innovative and helpful or is it a soup of other people’s ideas designed ultimately to gaslight people from the time that they walked through the door?”
I think the structure of the courses, how they were taught, the membership concepts, the breakout groups, and the adjacent cafe – all of that was pretty cool. The three times a week Ethos classes were innovative and fun, conceptually, and the membership was relatively inexpensive. I think the underlying “tech” and some of the subject matter were designed to gaslight people. Not necessarily once they walked in the door, but once they got deeper involved.
I think it was in part a “soup of other people’s ideas” but not entirely. Keith studied a lot of things and interpreted and added to them, thinking he knew better than everyone else. For example, I went with Keith to a Scientology Center a few times where he went through auditing sessions and dissected them with Nancy after. That’s how he created the “EM tech” although EM’s had fundamental differences then Scientology processes. I watched him study Neuro-Linguistic Programming for years and years but he didn’t import NLP wholesale into the trainings. He used the NLP techniques to induce people to believe the education would produce extraordinary results, however other than a few introductory classes he didn’t teach NLP directly. It was more covert. I could probably go on if I thought about it.
“How do you feel about people still using these methods as official or unofficial coaches/counselors?”
I think if people are still using the ESP methodologies it’s a recipe for harm and shouldn’t be happening. The introductory courses, like the 16-day Intensive, were pretty harmless but long-term EMing could do damage. Some of the philosophical concepts too were bad and could be harmful if deeply embraced.
“The changes that people had though Rational Inquiry were due to
A. People confronting psychological issues for the first time; and
B. Placebo/nocebo effect. Meaning that there are always going to be outliers (good and bad) in any controlled group.”
I think this is very astute and I agree. I’ll give you a notable example. I don’t know how carefully you’ve followed the story, but there is an individual named Marc Elliot who is presently a supporter of Keith’s. I watched Marc go through the NXIVM processes and completely cure his severe Tourette’s Syndrome. It was nothing short of extraordinary, and when I knew him, I thought he was an amazing person.
I think Marc cured his Tourette’s, not NXIVM – and it was a type of determination he had combined with a belief that he “could” cure himself, not NXIVM’s processes, that cured him. If Marc were to deconstruct his own process, he could probably create an amazing program for other Tourette’s sufferers and really help others. Unfortunately, he’s so caught up in giving Keith credit for everything, ever, in perpetuity, for all time, this will probably never happen. Which is a tragedy in my opinion.
“2. POS existed for literally years with obvious dedicated followers. What are the chances that the members top to bottom were involved with clandestine operations?”
I’m not sure if you mean “DOS” or “SOP” please clarify.
I don’t think there was anything going on in NXIVM that the Feds didn’t uncover. They did a very thorough investigation. Not all the crimes were prosecuted but every opportunity for crime ended. I don’t believe there was a stone left unturned.
-Kristin K
Thanks, Kristin. Amazing info that many have been wondering about for years.
Thank you, KK, for your responses here.
Yes, I would be interested to hear more specifics about how Keith used NLP. We hear general references to this from other sources, and I’ve read a little about NLP, yet I still don’t totally understand how Keith and Nancy used its techniques.
Hi Roger –
If I were to write more about the specific NLP techniques Keith and Nancy imported into NXIVM, I would need to go back to Keith’s source materials to write about it dispositively. I might do that in the near future if the interest is there, although it’s a bit of a heavy lift in terms of research and referencing.
Sounds like a good subject to include in a book!
Thank you for your detailed reply. You make legal subjects easy to consume.
Yes, I meant SOP. I just don’t see where KR would not have used a group of dedicated flying monkeys when they were available. I do accept that there was a thorough investigation.
How does Keith view men? Were we all in his way or did he like being the celibate monk in the hen house?
I agree with you about the introduction of the courses. They were harmless concepts but peppered with recruitment hooks. The students that only took the introductory courses generally had a good experience and were able to make positive changes in their lives. People who took more courses and became coaches generally started to emotionally unwind after a while. I think that Keith and Nancy saw EMs as an opportunity to data collect and use people’s issues as hooks to keep them around. They never built anyone up unless they were rich or a talented recruiter. Even those people would be eventually confronted or blamed when the time was right.
I don’t know Marc Elliot, but I also think that he is a perfect example of how NXVIM used outliers to define the effectiveness of “the tech.”
Mu –
Your reply is so succinctly brilliant, that I can’t help but think “This is the genius Mu I knew”.
I’m working very hard with my partner, Joe, to translate complex legal issues into understandable and interesting articles for regular people. I think it’s desperately needed in our culture, and I have high hopes we can pull it off.
I think Keith’s drive was to 24/7 manipulate everyone around him for the ultimate goal of controlling and subjugating women. I never saw him in 24 years have one friendship with a man. His sex addiction and drives consumed him. However, sometimes he would be playing the long game and could control himself enough for long cons, so his psychopathic impulsivity was not immediately obvious.
It’s hard to explain someone who is a genetic psychopath. They’re not like normal human beings.
For Keith, SOP was an attempt to rally a team of men around him so he could normalize his bad conduct. There was never some bigger, grand scheme other than that. He wanted to normalize his ability to hurt women. And he succeeded. He was so impulsive and addicted that NXIVM never grew beyond a $4 million a year business despite Keith’s raw intellectual brilliance and NXIVVM’s incredible clientele of VIP Business leaders, heirs to fortunes, and A-list celebrities.
You would think after he radicalized hundreds of men to support extremist misogyny, there would be a grander plan. There was not. It was all about Keith putting women down to coerce sex with them.
Wow. Such a great breakdown. It explains so much and answers so many lingering questions. I’m completely on board.
Thanks, Kristin, for giving your readers a peek inside the NXIVM tent. The recent documentaries and books focus on DOS, but mostly ignore the many years of SOP, Jness, and EMs, etc. that were necessary to set up these women to become slaves.
True Dat!
– Kristin K
Kristin – You used to often walk with your son who was still in a stroller and your dog (you wore a white or tan hat) through my Condo Assn’s parking lot. Sometimes, I would see you and your son on Independence. You were always alone (other than your son) and you looked sad. We waved at each other a few times, especially towards the end of your NXIVM years. Before that, were you even aware of your neighbors’ waves to you?
You were not a likeable character on the old SID blog. In fact, you were painted as a NXIVM winged monkey and merciless harpy for lack of better characterizations. Sometime before your escape, the crazy idea came to me that if anyone could do it and bring NXIVM to its knees it would be you. I figured it would be because of a mother’s love for her son. (Was I that far off?). We in the old hood had become tired of the TICK TOCK posts on the SID blog that never resulted in anything happening. I also had a good idea the NYS Police were in bed with Bronfman money. I figured that out after the TU series came out. My neighbor and I tailed a NYS Police car making the rounds of NXIVM townhomes and condos. It dawned on us, they are not here to protect from an alleged PEDO, they are here to protect Keith.
I remember where I was when the word hit the TU that you had defected. It was around Mother’s Day, or it was Mother’s Day 2014 (if I have the year correct). I was with my mom at Bountiful Bread. There was a copy of the TU on a table. My mom noticed one of the front-page bylines was the article about you leaving. Shortly after that, the transcript of your call with Barbara was released. We civilians were hoping that NXIVM would be brought down like the next day. FWIW, I could have cared less about the polyamory and who KR was sleeping with most of us were more concerned about Keith’s penchant for underaged women and our tween daughters after Secrets of NXIVM was published.
Glad you are out, but more importantly safe. I have no further questions 🙂 I spent way too many years down the rabbit hole of ESP/NXIVM but can vouch that some of the crap that was published was false. Like Keith becoming obese! I saw him walking practically every day and many of us in the hood probably came close to hitting him with our cars, especially when he walked at night on the wrong side of the road with his back to traffic in his royal blue shirt and dark shorts.
PS. Keith and SOP were red pilling NXIVM women long before the men’s movement hijacked that term from my favorite movie. That just may have been only one of his original or semi original ides. In today’s world, KR would just be another incel in his parents’ basement playing video games and being a troll on 4/8chan or whatever version it is on now.
Hi Wu_Tang!
For many of my years in NXIVM, I had a lot of underlying sadness, but my son has always been an amazing joy.
The Knoxwoods neighbors were often super nice to me, which surprised me at the time. (Except for the neighbor who tried to poison my cats! That was rough). The SID blog had a lot of negative things about me that were not accurate in relation to the facts. It was difficult too, as some of the hazing of me by the press made it harder for me to leave NXIVM because I couldn’t get outside work to support myself and my son. Conversely, going through that forced me to evaluate, hard, “How am I in this situation?” and examine all the causes and effects. That led me to expand my thinking over time, which then led to big changes.
When “A Split from NXIVM” was published by the Albany Times Union, I thought it would be a big wake-up call for the leadership/salespeople in NXIVM that may have been otherwise in the dark. Sadly it was not. As far as I know, no one in NXIVM investigated my allegations and no one cared. But I didn’t give up and four years later Keith was in prison for life. Sometimes big things don’t happen overnight and you need to be grateful for what DID happen as opposed to feeling anguished about what didn’t.
Thank you for the shoutout and encouragement!
Kristin:
First, thank you for acknowledging my post. We all have our dark moments or years, myself included. So happy you are living the life you are meant to live. One of the promises of AA which applies to many is “We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it”. You are not letting the past define you. KUDOS!! The past is the past, and there is nothing like living in the present. I often wish I had stopped you and offered you safe harbor but then I remember the Bronfman $$ and realize you would not have been safe anywhere within the Capital District. As we came to find out, you really weren’t safe for a long time regardless of how far you traveled.
I am often asked what it was like to have a cult as neighbors. My reply was/is always they are great neighbors, they kept to themselves. Knox Woods was and still is an island of misfit toys 🙂 with a bunch of cranky old women in some cul de sacs (General’s Way and over by Wilton Court who yell out to people walking Hey You get off your fking phone and stay out of my drive). Or the little old lady on Washington who always is looking for people to shovel her driveway in winter. 8 Hale still has the condemned sign on the door and the screen door doesn’t like to stay closed. Its kind of weird.
You have a gift of being able to explain complex legal material in a way that makes sense. That is not easy to do without coming off as condescending. I am an avid reader of Heather Cox Richardson who is able to explain the political climate and its relationship to past history. Check her out if you do not know of her.
As for a book on your experiences, I would buy it also. Maybe read “Not without my sister” by Juliana Buhring who grew up in the Child of God Cult, to help you figure out a way to tell your story . She went on to become an ultra endurance cyclist (and author). Sadly her partner died while kayaking a branch of the White Nile . But only tell your story when you’re ready as that requires peeling away some of those inner onion layers that are highly personal and which sometime need to be kept in their box.
Stay safe and as one of my favorite bands sings “what a long strange trip its been” Ask Joe O. He’ll know the tune. NAMASTE!
Thank you, Wu-Tang. I feel like I’m back in Knox Woods. Sooooo hilarious! I would never have been safe anywhere near Knox Woods, you are correct. I appreciate the Safe Harbor sentiment though. I will check out your references for Heather Cox Richardson and Juliana Buhring for sure, they sound intriguing.
Namaste to you too 🙂
Could you give a very detailed description of what Lauren Salzman’s personality was like? We don’t ever hear a lot about her and I am interested in her because of her being Nancy Salzman’s daughter.
Also, could you do the same thing for Michelle Salzman as well?
Do you think either of them is as bad as their mother? Either Lauren or Michelle?
Did you ever meet Allison Mack?
If so, is she as bad and cruel as many people make her out to be today?
Hi George –
I’ve been thinking all evening about your question. Oh god, Lauren?! Allison?! (As far as Michelle is concerned, she knew nothing, did nothing, and is nothing like her mother. NOT BAD. AT ALL. Quirky, quiet, artistic, funny. Always far removed from Keith.)
I think the biggest challenge is how do I speak to the truth of my experience with these women, while also being respectful to others who were victimized by them? Some of whom are my friends and/or I know spoke truthfully in the criminal case or on TV shows? It’s a delicate balance. I know what it’s like to be tortured and abused by someone who other people had a different experience of. Then the others negate or discredit what happened to you, maybe even call you a liar. There is almost nothing worse.
I am thinking on the best way to answer authentically without denying how others’ may have suffered. I will get back to you on this.
– Kristin K
Hi Kristin,
So, I’m guessing by what you said about Michelle is that she never had a sexual relationship with Keith, right?
Apparently from what Parlato reported, she isn’t that big of an angel, because despite her knowing what the court decreed, she is still using the NVIXM Tech under cover (without giving her clients the info that it was created by Keith).
Go read his blog about it.
But I think that I get what you’re trying to say about Lauren Salzman and Allison Mack. That you didn’t have that bad of an experience with them or perhaps that they were very nice to you, but you don’t want your specific relationship testimony of them to undermine the bad experiences of abuse that others had. Is that right?
If not, then please straighten that out. I would still like an in-depth description of them, regardless.
Allison Mack was hardly talked about in The Vow and Seduced except mainly about the DOS scandal and a small number of other things. But nothing ever really comprehensive to grasp her personality.
That goes double (if not even triple or even more) for Lauren Salzman (and many others too)!
You would think that being Nancy’s daughter (ya know, the woman who co-founded NXIVM. Lol.) would be much more covered than she was, but alas she was able to slip under the radar with minimum coverage compared to others.
Obviously, outside of Keith, Allison was the top covered for her celebrity status. But that so-called “coverage” was very short, sensational, repetitive talking points, and was chuck-full of salacious scandal-like gossip material that had no real substance in regards to her personality and what she was like.
Same thing with Lauren, just even less.
These people and their roles are very intriguing. I’m hoping you could shed some (if not an abundance of) light on them. Where the dying fake news media brutally failed.
I look forward to hearing from you about this.
Thanks,
Dear George –
I am not aware of Michelle having an intimate relationship with Keith. I think hereafter, I’m going to refrain from commenting on anyone’s sex life. I feel there’s something wrong with it.
I don’t think there is any evidence or reporting Michelle was using the EM tech covertly. What was reported was she was listed as an executive coach on Kim Constable’s Vegan bodybuilding business website in Ireland. As I recall, there WAS serious evidence Nancy was continuing to use the EM tech in violation of her bail with former clients and former client referrals at that time. Matter of fact, I learned then, quite reliably, that Nancy was bragging as a result she was making more money than ever before and only expected to get probation with no jail time. That was deeply disturbing to me.
Michelle was never accused of illegal activity nor am I aware of any illegal activity she ever engaged in. Michelle is not barred from doing anything she wants. We don’t know if Michelle went on to further her education or get certified as a coach in some other modality. For example, during the worst of the pandemic, I took a free online course given by Tony Robbins for 5 days. It was incredible. Much of my perspective on life changed within a few months (thank god for that). I learned more in 25 hrs than I had in 15 years in NXIVM. Which was both exhilarating and tragic. Like, I had spent 15 years lost down a rabbit hole and five years trying to fill it in so no one else fell in too when I could have taken one simple course.
There are a lot of good and useful programs out there, maybe Michelle will become an expert in one of them? She deserves that chance, I don’t think she or anyone else from NXIVM (other than Keith, Nancy, and Clare) should be barred for life or hazed on the internet for having a career in teaching personal growth.
The timing of the advertisement of Michelle by Kim speaks to a denial though, of the realities of her mother’s and her sister’s prosecutions and the underlying evidence. Which is troubling. The Salzman’s hadn’t even been sentenced yet. If Michelle was using EM Tech, let’s hope the negative publicity inspired her and Kim to course correct. These are not nefarious people. I knew Kim a little bit and she had a lot of pizazz and was never deeply involved with NXIVM. She’s built this great business in Ireland from scratch, from home, while homeschooling five kids. It’s impressive. It’s not my cup of tea but I think she has good intentions.
As for Lauren and Allison, I can share my observations.
Lauren is very intelligent, funny, and an amazing public speaker/presenter/teacher. NXIVM clients loved her, she was in huge demand as a head trainer. Although Lauren went along with a lot of bad things (including against me personally – in ways that were devastating and life-threatening) I never saw Lauren act with malice or hate. Ever. While Keith, Nancy, and Clare were consistently cruel and spiteful. It’s hard to comprehend the power of not only being in Keith’s vortex but your own mother’s. I think Lauren’s situation was all but inescapable and she developed irrational beliefs that she was doing good. Nancy completely sold her out in life every step of the way. When the reality of the criminal cases came crashing down on Lauren, she woke up, stepped up, and gave days of humiliating honest testimony ensuring Keith got convicted. After which she started a humble small dog grooming business on probation. I believe in second chances and hope for Lauren’s success. Maybe one day she’ll find an outlet for her higher-level skills again?
I never knew Allison well, but what I did know of her I thought she was very impressive. She had kindness and charisma, and a lot of talent and competence. When I learned about DOS and her role in it I was beyond shocked. For many years a lot of people made a ton of money off Allison. She was a flagship participant and her involvement enrolled many people, especially on the West Coast and in Canada. I wasn’t there after 2014 but I think all the years of SOP teachings, and their incorporation into all the other NXIVM programs got under her skin. She developed irrational beliefs and became a different person entirely. I studied all of the presentencing memoranda in the case and I found Allison’s pitch-perfect in terms of contriteness and renewed rationality. I think that kind of authenticity is hard to fake, like Lauren she got the big wake-up call.
She’s doing a long prison term in a tough prison. I hope when she’s released society gives her a second chance.
Again, thank you for the amazing information.
Why did Keith hate Tony Robbins? He clearly incorporated some of Tony’s stuff into the original 20 modules. I was told that Tony hit on Toni while Keith was sitting right there and being ignored. There was something else, too, but I just remember that it didn’t make much sense.
Also, the NXIVM/Scientology connection has been much discussed on FR. What year did you go with him while he had auditing sessions?
Hi Nutjob! You’re welcome.
I don’t think Keith hated Tony Robbins. He had a lot of his books, although when I studied Tony, I didn’t see anything that resembled ESP/NXIVM teachings. I remember when Keith met Tony in the early ’90s for about 5 minutes. They were never seated together. Keith did, however, think he was superior to everyone in all things. In the 90s, Tony was just coming up and I think Keith saw him mildly as a competitor.
I went with Keith to auditing sessions in 1998 when he was working with Nancy but before they started ESP. Pam Cafritz went too and was also audited. He and Nancy deconstructed Pam’s sessions as well and I was there for all those meetings.
SMH. During the very beginning of ESP, Keith was teaching the module about “What is a cult?” I raised my hand and asked for his thoughts on Scientology. He told me (it was a bigger class – 30 or so people were in it) that he didn’t know much about Scientology, but he’d guess that there may be some good things in it. My bullshit radar went off. I remember thinking he was either lying, or unprepared. How would he be teaching a core 20 module on cults and not know about Scientology?
In general, when you would hear him lie, what would go through your mind? Would you rationalize it? Get curious as to why he’d be lying? Get annoyed/mad? That pattern of lying caught up with him and makes it look like he’s crying wolf on all his appeals.
Nutjob,
I really appreciate your enthusiasm and support for our blog. You have, once again, brought up some things I did not witness or experience. Like, a discussion of cults in the 20 core modules that I don’t recall. I think if you had the foresight to recognize Keith was lying about things 24 years ago, that is admirable. Obviously, I did not. I don’t know what else to say. All I can do is try and explain my experience and how I processed things in the most honest way possible.
Thanks. I understand. There was a module that asked the discussion question, “What is a cult?” Then Nancy or Keith would go into their canned cult pitch calling people levelers who even use the word cult.
Keith taught that nondisclosure is perfectly fine. This set him up to be in the clear when he’d lie by omission. He also taught that you could basically do anything (including lying) if it were for the greater good. I guess I’m curious if you noticed a pattern of him lying? If yes, did that influence your awakening?
Hi,
Thanks for sharing.
I did, however, want to reply to a couple of things.
In regards to Michelle Salzman, I just want to make clear that I didn’t think one way or another. I was only reiterating what Frank Parlato reported. That’s why I said “apparently”. You seem to really care about Michelle, I’m very sorry if I struck a nerve. That wasn’t my intention. Please forgive me if I did.
In regards to her having intimate relations with Keith, I only asked that because you said that she was, “Always far removed from Keith”. Frank Parlato made it seem that she was in the so called “harem”! Which by the way, I hate that people call it that in regards to Keith because if one studied ancient middle eastern patriarchy, you would feel like an idiot for calling Keith’s little groupies that!
All the girls in a true historical harem KNEW about each other and all understood and consented to what they were involved in (despite what the feminists of today try to make it out to be back then). I’m not saying there were zero abuses back then at all, but Keith’s group of sex partners was nothing like that system. They didn’t lie and tell everybody that their husband was “celibate”, and have a mind fuck of a maze of not knowing who’s who in the “harem” and/or thinking they are the only one having sexual relations with him.
In regards to everybody and the media saying that Keith had a “harem”, that is pure bullshit and everybody who says that needs to pick up a history book and read it! Regardless of whether one thinks of harems from a moral standpoint, one be must accurately represent the system in question before attacking or approving of it. I’m not here to argue either/or. However, I will say that all Keith had was bunch of hoodwinked women in a mind fucked maze, that he in many ways I would say even raped by trickery (because who they thought they were having intimate relations with and the purpose of it giving them “enlightenment” was a lie. And had they known that for the start, I am sure that most, if not all, would’ve consented to having sex with him). It just a secret maze of women being lied to so that he could feed his sexual addiction! That is NOT a true harem by any means of the actual historical polygamous system. People need to stop saying that.
With that being said, it brings me to my next response to you where you said,
“I think hereafter, I’m going to refrain from commenting on anyone’s sex life. I feel there’s something wrong with it.“
If this was a normal circumstance, I would completely agree with you. However, I think we should be able to talk about those who were sexual victims of Keith. All details about NXIVM should come out so that the whole story can be known. If Michelle was having sex with Keith (when Lauren admitted publicly that she did) and you on The Vow broke the news to Sarah Edmondson that she was (yes I know your stance on that being Mark Vicente making that public, but still you disclosed it to Sarah regardless), I think with we all have the right to know to the full list of sexual victims of Keith. One way or another I believe the truth will be made known about it regardless. She will not escape publicity from that one way or another if she did.
However, if you choose not to participate in that (despite my disagreement with it). then that is your choice and I support your right to remain silent about anything you please. But with all due respect. you did say “Ask me *ANYTHING* about NXIVM”. This would be a part of “ANYTHING”. But still, that is your choice to make.
Moving on to other things. I have heard many different things about Lauren and quite frankly I don’t know what to believe. I have heard all the things you said about her before and the spectrum I have heard is basically from “kind, sweet; charismatic, intelligent, funny, poor manipulated girl” to “selfish, manipulative, out for herself, gossiper, two-faced bitch who is also a cowardly push over and can easily be manipulated (i.e., by Keith and Nancy) and is in many ways like Nancy and then I’ve heard it’s somewhere where down the middle of that spectrum or a mixed bag (if you will). I am not saying one way or another, I’m only telling you what I heard or what has been portrayed of her by Frank Report and/or other media and word of mouth or those who have claimed to have been around her. I make no absolutes for myself because I wasn’t there. I know about the dog grooming business and the trial already. But even then, that stuff gave me an idea (but not entirely) of what she was like. I hope one day to see more video footage of her and her interactions to make a better judgment for myself.
In regards to Allison Mack and you saying,
“I never knew Allison well, but what I did know of her I thought she was very impressive. She had kindness and charisma, and a lot of talent and competence.”
I can’t really tell if that’s what you saw or heard or if that meant that you did actually meet her (even if you “never [know her] well”, like you said).
That’s another person I would like to know more about.
Also you said that Allison was in a “tough prison”. I thought she was in a low security prison? When you say “tough” do you mean like she could be killed or is in danger of being severely hurt by prisoners or just the regimen is “tough”?
Also another huge question that I have been trying to figure out that nobody seems to have an answer about her for is that if you look at her original F.B.I. Indictment, it said one of the charges was “Child Sex Trafficking” (yes I know that isn’t hat she plead guilty to) But apparently there were no children involved in DOS. What do you know about that? That charge has lead to A LOT of different conspiracies about her and her possibly being a child molester or something. Do you think it was just a simple mistake by the F.B.I. or something? What’s the deal with that (if you know anything about it)?
Two more people I would like to know about and what they were like is Nancy and Pam Cafritz (obviously there are much more but I will choose them for now to be so overwhelming).
It seems to me that you REALLY don’t like Nancy and appear to view her as much as a devil as Keith, is that right? From what I’ve heard the spectrum with her is that she is “very motherly like, charming, and compassionate beyond words” to she is a “sociopathic, selfish monster, and pathological liar who has always been a con artist that uses charm and manipulation to get what she wants and that she is also a HUGE gossiper who can’t keep her mouth shut about anybody’s privacy and uses poor Lauren’s codependence of her mother as a slave to do her bidding” and also somewhere down the middle. You seem to be on the side she is pure evil incarnate side of the spectrum with no compromise. No better that Keith, if you will.
Do you think she had that much evil intent or greed? Or do you think that she thought she was actually doing good like she said in her guilty plea? If the former, then how do you suppose Lauren and Michelle didn’t turn out a corrupt as her as an influence over them their whole lives (if that’s what you feel)? That is something very interesting to me.
Also what was Pam Cafritz like? Basically I’ve heard the same spectrum as both Nancy and Lauren. What day you?
I am very eager to hear your answers on all of this!
Thanks,
Hi George –
I think in starting this I intended to perform with the concept of “Ask Me Anything” not “Ask Me Everything”. You have many, many questions and I’m not prepared totally to give you the depth of analysis you seek. However, in light of the huge response to my AMA, I’m thinking of ways to publish more long-form writing about NXIVM.
For now, I’ll give you some brief answers to some of your questions.
You didn’t hit a nerve with Michelle. I was thinking tonight that I can’t remember a single conversation I ever had with Michelle. I didn’t know her really she isn’t someone I have any feelings about. However, I’m a cheerleader at heart. I like to see people do well in life across the board. Keith is in jail, justice was served. As far as I’m concerned, I’d like to see everyone else affiliated with NXIVM move on and do well and be happy. I went through a lot of hardship, I was discredited and sabotaged as a whistleblower. I had to hide with my son for years and we faced enormous hardship as a result. A lot of people enabled or facilitated our persecution, practically every single friend I had.
But, you know what? I’ve moved beyond it, I don’t hold a grudge and if I don’t, probably no one else should either.
I think it’s fine if you or others continue to ask questions about who was having sex with who. I’m not sure I will continue to answer all those questions because I don’t think revealing personal relationships is something I want to be doing. It feels like we are going into a realm that’s a little weird for me. I’m a philosophical person, I tend not to be interested or focused on the more sordid aspects of life too much.
As far as Nancy and Lauren, or others, I have discussed my opinions of my direct experience with them. Other people may have had different experiences or things changed after I left NXIVM. I wouldn’t negate other people’s testimony. People are not always consistent in how they treat others and I think that is especially true in the case of the NXIVM community.
“As far as Nancy and Lauren, or others, I have discussed my opinions of my direct experience with them. Other people may have had different experiences or things changed after I left NXIVM. I wouldn’t negate other people’s testimony. People are not always consistent in how they treat others and I think that is especially true in the case of the NXIVM community.“
Well I haven’t heard what you said about them. That’s why I asked.
If you could answer the questions I had about all of this in my previous message before this one, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
to George–
You are Ex-Nx, so did you take SOP classes and what did you think of them…then…and now?
To: BenThere25
I have NEVER been a part of NXIVM! EVER!
I have never even been to New York in my life! I also haven’t even heard about NXIVM until about 2-3 years ago.
I have no clue where you got that idea from, but that is not true.
In regards to SOP, couldn’t answer that because I have never taken them and didn’t even know what that was until it was long destroyed.
I could tell you what I think from what I’ve read.
As a Christian, I think it is a wonderful idea to have a group like SOP that would help men understand how to become Godly men under a biblical paradigm.
I completely understand that was not the angle that Keith did nor was it his true intention with SOP. There are some things that as a Christian I could agree with SOP on (probably because Keith ripped of those parts from the Bible). However, you must first strip out all of the underhanded manipulation tactics that Keith was using to make men even more ungodly men and abusive. There are also many things in it that, from a Christian standpoint, are point blank heresy!
So in other words, I would say about SOP the “illusion” or face value of what SOP was represented as, had it have been without the ungodly prices (why would you claim that you want to “save the world” when the vast majority of the world could not afford such ludicrous prices?!), truthful, without corruption or abuse, and most importantly, done in a biblical paradigm, I’d be all for it.
But in regards to what the SOP structure actually was as a whole, with no changes to make it truly pure and just submitting to the tainted curriculum with no corrections, and knowing Keith’s true sinister esoteric and underhanded agenda with it, I MUST COMPLETELY RENOUNCE IT!
Especially on top of all the errors, I must reiterate that somebody who truly wanted to “save the world” would not charge money (and especially that amount of ridiculous amount of money to most people who can’t even afford to pay for this so called “enlightenment” that they “need” to “make the world a better place”) if they truly wanted it to be done!
That’s why the disciples NEVER charged money for healings and teachings EVER! Hell! Jesus Christ himself PAID for the debt for sins all on his own with his life!
Funny how Keith wanted to use him as a person to idolize but could never actually grasp who he was or what he stood for when it was staring him in his face the whole time!
He never knew Christ and just wanted to be Christ and he couldn’t because Christ is without sin and he’s chock full of it! His pride deceives him and because of the ridiculous amount of pride he has that blinds him from repenting and humbly receiving Jesus Christ as Lord (funny that he always wanted to call everybody else out on their “pride” because he was a projector), he will unfortunately have to figure it out in the next world when he burns in hell and faces the Wrath of God for his sins because he foolish thought of himself as a “savior” that everybody should fully trust and obey without questioning instead of putting his own faith, trust, and obedience in the TRUE SAVIOR Jesus Christ!
You think he’s crying because he’s in “hell now”! There is going to come a day where he will beg God to be able to cut off his hands and feet and come back in this world like a worm and be where he is at right a million times over compared to where he will be going in the end and the horrendous tortures that he will face that will make every controversial graphic horror movie combined look as desirable a back massage than what he will go through!
That’s what he should truly be afraid of!
I hope that answers your questions.
Hi George –
If you read all my replies to questions here, you’ll see everything I’ve said about Nancy, Lauren, and others. 🙂
Hi Kristen,
I took the time to comb through all of the Q&A’s on here and found that the vast majority of my other questions haven’t been answered.
I will repost the parts to my previous message here to make it easy for you.
In regards to Michele having intimate relations with Keith, I only asked that because you said that she was, “Always far removed from Keith”. But Frank Parlato made it seem that she was in the so called “harem”.
So, I’m guessing you’re implying Frank is full of shit about this?
____________________
In regards to Lauren Salzman,
I have heard many different things about Lauren and quite frankly I don’t know what to believe. I have heard all the things you said about her before and the spectrum I have heard is is basically from “kind, sweet; charismatic, intelligent, funny, poor manipulated girl” to “selfish, manipulative, out for herself, gossiper, two-faced bitch who is also a cowardly push over and can easily be manipulated (i.e. by Keith and Nancy) and is in many ways like Nancy and then I’ve heard it’s somewhere down the middle of that spectrum or a mixed bag (if you will). I am not saying one way or another, I’m only telling you what I heard or what has been portrayed of her by Frank Report and/or other media and word of mouth or those who have claimed to have been around her. I make no absolutes for myself because I wasn’t there. I know about the dog grooming business and the trial already. But even then, that stuff gave me an idea (but not entirely) of what she was like. I hope one day to see more video footage of her and her interactions to make a better judgment for myself.
What do you say about Lauren specifically to all of that?
____________________
In regards to Allison Mack and you saying,
“I never knew Allison well, but what I did know of her I thought she was very impressive. She had kindness and charisma, and a lot of talent and competence.”
I can’t really tell if that’s what you saw or heard or if that meant that you did actually meet her (even if you “never [know her] well”, like you said)
That’s another person I would like to know more about.
Also, you said that Allison was in a “tough prison”. I thought she was in a low-security prison? When you say “tough” do you mean like she could be killed or is in danger of being severely hurt by prisoners or just the regimen is “tough”?
Also, another huge question that I have been trying to figure out that nobody seems to have an answer about her for is that if you look at her original F.B.I. indictment, it said one of the charges was “Child Sex Trafficking” (Yes, I know that isn’t one that she plead guilty to) But apparently there were no children involved in DOS. What do you know about that? That charge has lead to A LOT of different conspiracies about her and her possibly being a child molester or something. Do you think it was just a simple mistake by the F.B.I. or something? What’s the deal with that (if you know anything about it)?
____________________
In regards to Nancy,
I heard you say that she’s basically selfish and cares only about herself. But there has to be more than just that.
It seems to me that you REALLY don’t like Nancy and appear to view her as much as a devil as Keith, is that right? From what I’ve heard, the spectrum with her is that she is “very motherly like, charming, and compassionate beyond words” to she is a “sociopathic, selfish monster, and pathological liar who has always been a con artist that uses charm and manipulation to get what she wants and that she is also a HUGE gossiper who can’t keep her mouth shut about anybody’s privacy and uses poor Lauren’s codependence of her mother as a slave to do her bidding” and also somewhere down the middle. You seem to be on the side she is pure evil incarnate side of the spectrum with no compromise. No better than Keith, if you will.
Do you think she had that much evil intent or greed? Or do you think that she thought she was actually doing good like she said in her guilty plea? If the former, then how do you suppose Lauren and Michelle didn’t turn out a corrupt as her as an influence over them their whole lives (if that’s what you feel)? That is something very interesting to me.
____________________
In regards to Pam Cafritz?
What was she like? Do you think that she was as evil as Keith or was she just naive or what? Basically, I’ve heard the same spectrum as both Nancy and Lauren. What say you?
____________________
I also have two new questions from reading all of your other Q&A’s
1. Did you ever meet Kristen Kreuk? If so, what was she like?
2. I have heard that Toni Natalie is about as big of a snake as Keith. She lies and cares only about herself, etc.
I read that you and other anti-nexians don’t like her.
I would like to know what she’s like too and why don’t you speak to her anymore? What did she do?
Please answer all of these things as thoroughly and in as much details as possible.
Thank you.
By the way, are you guys planning on fixing this word box here? It looks horrible! You can’t space out paragraphs or anything!
Yep…We’re aware of the problem and our web designer is working to resolve it.
Please bear with us – and, once we have the problem resolved, we’ll go back and fix all the prior comments.
Hi, Kristin
I guess you’re not going to talk to me anymore?
I’m sorry if I offended or bothered you.
Hi George –
I’m not bothered one bit! I have a story we are publishing tomorrow about the Proud Boys that I’ve been working hard on, and some other stories in the works. Once I am finished with those, I’ll look into putting more detailed replies in the comments.
Hi Kristen,
Did you ever finish your Proud Boys story yet?
I’ve been dying to hear your answers about what I’ve asked. 😊
George,
My new article is up. I hope you will give feedback and ask questions!
Hi Kristen,
The reply button isn’t working lower where I was trying to type this.
I am interested in your article and will read it but the context that I was inquiring about in my previous message was about the list of questions that I sent to you on July 17, 2022 at 8:55am
You said you would get to them after you were done with your article, remember?
I’ve been waiting and really looking forward to your response for those for a week and a half now.
Could you please answer those thoroughly now if you have the necessary time on your hands at your convenience to do so?
Thanks!
George, your interest is really sweet. Your questions were many and the depth of analysis you were asking for was great. Might that be better for long-form articles or a book? When I set up the AMA, I never anticipated the length and breadth of questions like yours. I’ve been thrilled and encouraged by the response to my AMA but… I didn’t anticipate readers asking me dozens of questions per comment. In my experience, AMAs are one question at a time.
Can you start with that? One question at a time? If so, I’ll be happy to answer.
This reply is supposed to be towards what Kristen said to me on July 28, 2022 at 2:38 am.
I had to post up it here again because the reply button is still not working.
Anyways,
I wasn’t expecting a “book long” response.
I feel that if you think are too long that you could just go by my list and answer each one individually.
However, I will do what you asked and cut my list of questions up and send one question per message and you can reply to each message at your convenience if that makes it easier for you.
Question #1
In regards to Lauren Salzman,
I have heard many different things about Lauren and quite frankly I don’t know what to believe. I have heard all the things you said about her before and the spectrum I have heard is basically from “kind, sweet; charismatic, intelligent, funny, poor manipulated girl” to “selfish, manipulative, out for herself, gossiper, two-faced bitch who is also a cowardly push over and can easily be manipulated (i.e., by Keith and Nancy) and is in many ways like Nancy and then I’ve heard it’s somewhere down the middle of that spectrum or a mixed bag (if you will). I am not saying one way or another, I’m only telling you what I heard or what has been portrayed of her by Frank Report and/or other media and word of mouth or those who have claimed to have been around her. I make no absolutes for myself because I wasn’t there. I know about the dog grooming business and the trial already. But even then, that stuff gave me an idea (but not entirely) of what she was like. I hope one day to see more video footage of her and her interactions to make a better judgment for myself.
What do you say about Lauren specifically to all of that?
In regards to Allison Mack and you saying,
“I never knew Allison well, but what I did know of her I thought she was very impressive. She had kindness and charisma, and a lot of talent and competence.”
I can’t really tell if that’s what you saw or heard or if that meant that you did actually meet her (even if you “never [know her] well”, like you said)?
That’s another person I would like to know more about.
Also, you said that Allison was in a “tough prison”. I thought she was in a low-security prison?
When you say “tough” do you mean like she could be killed or is in danger of being severely hurt by prisoners or just the regimen is “tough”?
Also, another huge question that I have been trying to figure out that nobody seems to have an answer about her for is that if you look at her original F.B.I. indictment, it said one of the charges was “Child Sex Trafficking” (Yes, I know that isn’t one that she plead guilty to) But apparently there were no children involved in DOS. What do you know about that? That charge has lead to A LOT of different conspiracies about her and her possibly being a child molester or something. Do you think it was just a simple mistake by the F.B.I. or something? What’s the deal with that (if you know anything about it)?
Question #3
[NOTE: ALLISON MACK WAS QUESTION # 2. I FORGOT TO PUT THAT ON THAT MESSAGE. SORRY]
In regard to Nancy Salzman,
I heard you say that she’s basically selfish and cares only about herself. But there has to be more than just that.
It seems to me that you REALLY don’t like Nancy and appear to view her as much as a devil as Keith, is that right? From what I’ve heard, the spectrum with her is that she is “very motherly like, charming, and compassionate beyond words” to she is a “sociopathic, selfish monster, and pathological liar who has always been a con artist that uses charm and manipulation to get what she wants and that she is also a HUGE gossiper who can’t keep her mouth shut about anybody’s privacy and uses poor Lauren’s codependence of her mother as a slave to do her bidding” and also somewhere down the middle. You seem to be on the side she is pure evil incarnate side of the spectrum with no compromise. No better than Keith, if you will.
Do you think she had that much evil intent or greed? Or do you think that she thought she was actually doing good like she said in her guilty plea? If the former, then how do you suppose Lauren and Michelle didn’t turn out as corrupt as her as an influence over them their whole lives (if that’s what you feel)? That is something very interesting to me.
Question #4
In regards to Pam Cafritz?
What was she like? Do you think that she was as evil as Keith or was she just naive or what? Basically, I’ve heard the same spectrum as both Nancy and Lauren. What say you?
Question #5
Did you ever meet Kristen Kreuk? If so, what was she like?
Question #6
I have heard that Toni Natalie is about as big of a snake as Keith on FR as well as from many others. Apparently from I understand all she does is lie and cares only about herself, etc. I heard that she also twists her story in everything in order to it make more sensational so that it her book will be more money worthy.
I read that you and other anti-nexians don’t like her.
I would like to know what she’s like too and why don’t you speak to her anymore? What did she do?
Hi Kristin,
Let me know if how I broke the questions apart makes it easier for you or not.
Thanks!
Kristin, so delighted that you will be writing a book. Starting is the most overwhelming. It’s a lot of years to recount. Just begin in a nonlinear way. Write what you remember. It will trigger more memories. That part can be really hard! Have a support system in place. Try writing for your son. My love this is the whole story… Or a trusted friend. But really always, always, write for yourself. It will begin to take shape. I think you have more than one book in you. You can decide if you want to do an overview of everything for the first tome. Or ‘early years’ and it’s a much deeper dive. And then ‘leaving’ and then ‘hiding’ and ‘justice’ plus the aftermath. An analysis and understanding of ‘what happened’ is maybe a part of it? But could also be a more removed aspect? And a different book? Put yourself back ( I know! Ugh. So challenging) and just…tell it. Really. People will understand. When anyone is honest other humans sense it and usually understand pretty readily. Just WRITE. You will find the style. The tone. You’ve already found your voice (you never REALLY lost it). Just WRITE. Write. Write. This last part will sound against conventional wisdom – but you don’t really need to know what your writing. Or if people will like it. Or how to tell it. That’s not your concern, for now. Just WRITE. And then you will know. It will emerge like a sculpture from clay. And then maybe you’ll get a really good editor! One that you trust And with whom you vibe And they’ll read your incredible, honest words. What you’ve got written. And they will guide you (if you want) just to say, “Kristin, it’s fantastic. This is two books!” Or “Kristin this is amazing! Tell us more about the day that…” Does this make any sense, Kristin? You’ve got this! You just start writing. Writing! Writing! Ha, ha. It’s not a grim story. It’s a survivor story. About a beautiful mom and the magical baby boy who gave her the strength to set them both free at last. That is an INSPIRING story. And for the reader to understand the light, they must experience the dark. But do not worry about language. About grammar. About story structure. About judgement. Your own. Or others. Just WRITE. Tell the truth. Put in the things you don’t want to! Take out the things you love the most. Ha, ha! That’s for later. All you need to do now… is write. A writer writes. That’s what they do! A painter paints. Bird by Bird (Do you know that writing book?) Just start. It will become clear to you. You’ll get this done! Write, Kristin. Just write! So excited for you, Kristin. Another possibility for you to get started is to have someone you completely trust and every day you guys have some conversation, and you record it and of course you keep control of that recording. But you just tell them a story and let them ask you questions. I cannot emphasize enough that you do not need to worry about the structure at this point. And there are people who can help you with that eventually if you even need it. It’s just the most important that you tell the story. Tell your story. So, you could audio record yourself. Record it and then transcribe it how you want. Just suspend all judgment and all preconceived notions and start! The first scene in the book may not even be day one you know? Like how a movie starts with an out of sequence scene and then goes back and explain some stuff. That’s nothing you need to worry about right now. Just write it or record it talking to somebody or yourself. And it will begin to reveal itself. The story will tell itself through you.
Hi Humble – Thank you for your encouragement!
I have a pretty solid outline I worked on with a former CNN writer in 2019 which I can revisit. I have a great writing partner here at Trials and Truths who is super supportive. I’m going to see how it goes and publish some stories about my experiences here on our site and engage with readers for feedback and direction. Keep an eye out for new stories and please give me lots of feedback. 🙂
Did Nancy have a sexual relationship with Keith?
When/Where/What do you think caused keith to turn extremely evil?
Yes, she did.
I’m pretty certain Keith was born a psychopath. It’s a genetic mutation in the brain. If you want to understand this, read the work of Dr. Robert Hare. He is the foremost expert on psychopathy in the United States, developed the psychopathy checklist for the DSM, and for decades was a high-level consultant to the FBI. Dr. Hare says all psychopaths are born, not made. I’ve studied his work in detail, and compared it to my firsthand experience with Keith.
Keith knows he is a psychopath and used to talk with me often about the nature of psychopaths. I think he was trying to figure out his place in the grand scheme of things. For a time, we would discuss, “If intelligent design exists, why would there be psychopaths?” Keith’s hypothesis was, “Maybe it’s a glitch?” Like a mistake. Then, for a while, he would discuss with me, “Maybe psychopaths exist to motivate the rest of humanity to grow?” Like, all the adversity psychopaths create for normal people encourages growth that may not otherwise happen.
I remember the day I realized he was a psychopath – and that during all these years of discussions, he’d been talking about himself. That was a mind-blowing day. I recapitulated all my past experiences and everything fell in place. It all seemed so obvious then too and I realized I might be in serious danger, I had to keep my cool and figure out an exit strategy. In the end, there was no graceful exit, I just had to run!
– Kristin K
I really want you to talk more in response to this question having seen your incredibly informed response.
I’ve got this on my list of stories to write a more detailed analysis about. The nature of the psychopathic brain, which I consider a horribly tragic disorder but also a hugely destructive force in our society, is very underreported. IMHO. Keep abreast of our reporting. I will be writing on this more soon.
Hi Kristin,
Thank you for all the answers you’ve given so far. It seems like a lot of the insider info that has come out about NXIVM only comes from a few people, and it’s nice to hear from someone else.
You mentioned being in The Vow basically against your own will. I’m curious – would you say that The Vow made all parties (Mark + Bonnie, Sarah + Nippy, Catherine) look a lot less guilty than they actually were of things? It always confused me how Mark and Nippy were the heads of SOP, which was truly one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen, and this seemed to be brushed past rather quickly in The Vow.
I would argue that these kinds of teachings and thoughts are something they always had. What would you say?
Do you think they did worse things than they have been called out for?
Also, I was curious if you would say the majority of people in NXVIM were right-wing/conservatives – or were they more left-leaning? There were definitely pretty much (from what I can tell) only white, straight people in NXVIM and I wonder how gay people were treated there.
Thanks!
Hi, curious –
“I’m curious – would you say that The Vow made all parties (Mark + Bonnie, Sarah + Nippy, Catherine) look a lot less guilty than they actually were of things? It always confused me how Mark and Nippy were the heads of SOP, which was truly one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen, and this seemed to be brushed past rather quickly in The Vow.”
I wouldn’t use the word “guilty”. SOP was a very serious thing. I gave some details of the teachings and how they impacted me in an earlier reply to “Ice-Nine”. I was very surprised SOP was barely discussed in The Vow. Maybe that will change in Season 2? For m, it’s the giant elephant in the room it’s been hard to process the lack of discussion about it. I think it’s highly likely many women are carrying the effects of those teachings with them on a deep subconscious level. After the wild success of SOP’s launch, Keith imported many of the misogyny into all the NXIVM higher-level programs. Women were taught these ideas daily, weekly, and monthly for years. That’s not something you shake.
Mark created the SOP program with Keith and was its de facto leader. Nippy didn’t join the leadership until years later. Mark has described his “Harrowing Journey” escaping NXIVM. I wouldn’t frame getting on a plane to your Los Angeles second home and contacting your powerful Hollywood friends as harrowing. Nor do I consider setting cameras up all over your house and secretly tape-recording your friends appropriate given the circumstances. Mark went everywhere with film crews a month after he resigned and, thereafter, which put a lot of psychological pressure on women who were severely victimized and traumatized by things he had contributed to greatly. Myself included. That was really tough on a lot of people.
That being said, I benefited from Mark’s efforts in many respects. Although I was traumatized terribly by his methods of going after Keith et al, if he had walked away and done nothing, I would have been in a far, far worse situation. Keith might not have gone to jail. It was The Vow directors who got the New York Times to write about NXIVM and DOS. Who knows if they would have done that if Mark hadn’t agreed to be the subject of their show? As for Sarah? It took a lot of courage for her to come out about the branding and, oh my, that picture on Page 1 of the New York Times was amazing. She has a lot of chutzpah. That was not an easy thing to do. In an earlier comment which I have not replied in full to yet, “Ice-Nine” asked me if I thought it was all over once the NYT story ran. No, I definitely did not. There were a thousand moving parts in the takedown of Keith Raniere and a thousand ways it could have gone sideways. Especially once he ran away to Mexico. The fact that it all came together was nothing short of a miracle in my book and everyone’s contribution mattered, however imperfect.
As for Bonnie and Nippy, I think they’ve gotten caught up in all the publicity and are trying to make their way in the world as best they can. I never knew Bonnie well, but I did help organize and cater her and Mark’s wedding, and one summer at V-Week, she worked with the children and I got to know her a little bit. I saw her perform then, singing, too. I remember thinking, “She’s the most talented person here”. She is very gifted. Nippy is the person in their group I was most friendly with, and he was a very thoughtful caring person when I knew him. And hilarious. I can remember being sick laughing talking/working with Nippy. If anyone is going to talk candidly and deconstruct the embracing of SOP and how that all went down, my money’s on Nippy. I hope he does it.
As for Catherine, she deserves a gold medal. She knew nothing about what was happening (ever) and when she learned, boy did she step up. Her actions created a lot of momentum on the ground in the lead-up to the EDNY investigation. She saved her daughter. I don’t think anyone knows this (because she hasn’t taken credit) but she created a fund for therapy services for any person victimized in NXIVM. I learned about it and was set up with an amazing, very expensive therapist who I worked with for a time. That was hugely beneficial to me. Catherine must have spent tens of thousands of dollars because I know many people who contacted her foundation for help and got it. She never asked for anything in return. Very cool.
********************
“I would argue that these kinds of teachings and thoughts (re: SOP) are something they always had. What would you say?”
Yes, I would agree. I think there is deep seeded misogyny in our culture amongst both men and women. If Keith hadn’t hit a chord with what men already thought about women deep down, SOP would not have been embraced as quickly and with such totality. When the women learned what was being taught, no one stood up. All the women accepted it as true. Most of the men in NXIVM were touchy-feely personal growth addicts, heavily left-leaning. Which made the whole thing all the more surprising.
As for gay students, I don’t have a lot of experience to know. There were not many gays in the program, but the few there were I think were treated like everyone else? Although I’m not sure.
There’ve been salacious rumors about Girls By Design that I won’t bother to repeat, but evidence reveals many GBD articles were inappropriately sexual for young girls. Tabby Chapman said on FR that Kreuk and Voth solely controlled GBD, yet Tabby ignored questions about the sexual content. Do you know if Keith or Nancy influenced GBD content, and were Kreuk and Voth willing or unwilling contributors?
I don’t think Keith or Nancy had anything to do with GBD. Kristin Kreuk was a super busy actress. Although I had little to do with the educational community, I spoke with Keith and Nancy daily. They were such huge braggarts and controllers anytime a VIP – like a famous or rich person – was in town or working with them I always heard about it.
I never saw any evidence that Kristin Kreuk worked closely with them. Ever. It could have happened, but it is not likely.
– Kristin K
Then Kristin and Kendra were the ones responsible for the inappropriate sexual content given to young teen girls? Shame. What type of girls were they trying to design?
I never saw any of the GBD content? Can you link to it?
I’d say yes, it was the founders’ own doing. If someone came forward with some evidence that Kristin Kreuk was working on that with Keith and Nancy, I’d be shocked.
– Kristin K
Kristin– here are some of the many links to FR posts about GBD. Just the first post by Frank P should suffice. The others are by non-Kreuk fans.
——————-
https://frankreport.com/2020/02/21/kristin-kreuks-sexy-7-aimed-suspicious-questions-at-12-year-old-girls-2/
https://frankreport.com/2020/03/18/deep-dive-into-kristin-kreuks-girls-by-design-part-1/
https://frankreport.com/2020/03/20/kristin-kreuks-gbd-part-2/
https://frankreport.com/2020/02/22/bangkok-to-those-who-say-kristin-kreuks-girls-by-design-was-not-nxivm-inspired-would-you-let-your-own-teen-daughter-be-taught-there/
I don’t see any evidence in what you have provided that Kristin Kreuk had any direct involvement with Keith and Nancy to influence Girls by Design. Having been there myself, on the ground talking to Keith and Nancy directly every day, witnessing or being told directly from the sources about Kristin Kreuk’s involvement (or lack thereof), I am probably the best authority available about this matter today.
I don’t see anything wrong with what Kristin was doing with GBD and I know Keith and Nancy were not involved. There might be a fascination with celebrities and people trying to connect them to all kinds of bad things or interpret their actions through a filter of the worst things that came out about Keith Raniere years later.
In this situation, it does not apply. I respectfully request we leave it at that. The truth matters to me WAY more than clickbait.
-Kristin K
Kristen,
You have been so gracious answering any and all questions. You don’t appear to have any agenda. That’s really unique in post Nxium major players! I am carefully choosing my questions for you. Imagine that this is both time consuming and emotionally exhausting to recount. But it’s thrilling to read about it. Such fresh insight and information. Thank you!
Hi, Humble!
It is time-consuming answering everyone’s questions but I’m enjoying it greatly. Thank you for your enthusiasm, so cool!
– Kristin K
Take your time. The slow drip gives us steady dopamine hits and keeps us coming back. Your answers are enthralling.
!00% Nutjob. I think Niceguy is going to shit himself when he finds this page lol.
Kristin – yes, take your time and I sincerely hope this is therapeutic for you.
Hi Kristin – Another Nancy question. Do you remember when Nancy went through the stage where she told everyone that Keith was a psychopath, she was scared of him, and that she was never going to have anything to do with him again. This was when Keith was trying to have her go into business with him and start ESP. If Nancy hadn’t changed course, this NXIVM nightmare wouldn’t have occurred. Do you know what changed her mind? All I have are the obvious educated guesses.
Hi! Nancy never went through a stage where she told everyone Keith was a psychopath. I think that’s another NXIVM myth. I was there. I met Nancy a few weeks after she met Keith and they had decided to work together. She was 100% in. I got to know her ex-husband’s wife Sandy, who introduced Nancy to Keith. She and Nancy would often talk about how they all got together.
I have found a lot of fake stories about NXIVM are usually myths created by people who are trying to pretend they were there or have unique insights into things that they way overblow or never happened. As a kind of con to monetize their fake or exaggerated involvement. I’ve also seen instances of NXIVM mythmaking that appear to be a product of mental illness, which is sad.
– Kristin K
Maybe it wasn’t a stage. Maybe it was just a day or a weekend, if you know what I mean. But she talked about him being a psychopath and clearly couldn’t get her mind off of him. I remember feeling a little weird because Toni was sitting right there and didn’t argue with Nancy or didn’t even seem to care. I’m pretty sure you were also there listening to it. May or June of 1998. I might be crazy because someone else who was there listening to Nancy, also doesn’t remember it. The reason I don’t think I’m crazy is I didn’t speak to anyone for another month or two. The next communication I heard was Nancy talking about how she was starting this new business called ESP with this brilliant guy. I remember getting chills because the last time I saw her, she was calling him a psychopath. I wonder if Karen U remembers? LOL
If you heard this directly, then I stand corrected! So sorry I thought it was another rumor/myth.
I was definitely not there though, (I don’t think?) and Nancy was already working with Keith before ESP. Keith was consulting with her on her corporate training contracts at Con Edison and elsewhere. So, if she was talking about Keith being a psychopath, they were already business partners.
Yeah. it doesn’t totally add up. That’s partially why I hoped you remembered it… It may have been April of 1998 at the earliest. She said it to a group of about 20 of us.
You know, Nancy said and did a lot of crazy things that were completely inconsonant. Like, at the end of my tenure when I would say to her things like “Nancy, how does Keith sleeping with all these women bring ethics into the world?” She would laugh her ass off like, “I know right?” Then the next day it was business as usual like we never had that conversation.
She has a fundamental disconnect between morality and action. If she joked to you and others saying, “I thought Keith was a psychopath” or “IS a psychopath” I don’t find that implausible. That’s what she is like. She could say something acknowledging something really bad was happening and then move full steam ahead the next day like the conversation never happened. For the money and power, she hoped to achieve.
I don’t remember this event, but I would trust your recollection over mine if you are clear on it. There were a lot of things burned into my memory and other things I totally forgot.
As a writer and commenter on Trials & Truths, I think, first and foremost, it’s important to encourage you to trust your first-hand experience above all. 🙂
– Kristin K
Hi Kristin – Here are some questions that are all over the board. I understand you may not know the answers to some of the questions, but I’m hoping you can give me your thoughts on the topics.
– Do you think Keith ever had a girl or two use a stopwatch and time him in the 100 yard dash (that he probably had measured to 60 yards)? Or do you think he simply lied about tieing the NYS record?
– How do you think Nancy was impacted by Lauren being in a sexual relationship with Keith? Was she happy about it? Mad? Jealous? Shoulder shrug? Did she feel bad for Lauren and blame herself for it? Did it make her more “all in” with Keith’s insanity?
– In one of your replies, you came down pretty hard on Nancy. Yet, you seemed to keep trying to save Nancy and get her away from Keith. What was your relationship like with Nancy? Keith, Clare and Nancy seemed to use money as a way to ensnare people. (Nancy’s loan to Toni. Free ESP classes. Everything Clare did) Did they use this approach on you?
– What do you think happened with Kristin Snyder? Why do you think Ed Kinum refuses to talk about it?
– What do you think the chances are that Keith had a “murder for hire” contact? Why did he have a pattern of telling people that “he’s had people killed for his beliefs”? How many times did you hear him say this to people?
– From the beginning of your relationship with Keith, did he only expect you to be in an intimate relationship with him? How did his expectation change over time? Did you have boyfriends or hookups over the years when you were involved with him? If either yes or no, did you need to (or would you have needed to) keep it a secret?
– Over the first few months of ESP, there was a large African American gentleman who participated a lot, and went to many/most of the classes. One day, he was gone. I asked Nancy where he disappeared to and she blew it off by saying, “Oh, he was a leveler.” What was the real story of why he left? Do you remember his first name?
– BTW – you really need to write a book about your experiences. You have the answers and stories that everyone wants to hear.
Yes, write a book! That’s your ticket to Executive Success.
Hi!
– Do you think Keith ever had a girl or two use a stopwatch and time him in the 100-yard dash (that he probably had measured to 60 yards)? Or do you think he simply lied about tying the NYS record?
I think this fascination over Keith’s puffed-up bio from 20 years ago is kind of funny. I didn’t even know about the bio until after his arrest. I sort of remember Keith saying once about how years before he had done some running successfully but I had never heard about his so-called record. I would say “Yes, he simply lied”.
– How do you think Nancy was impacted by Lauren being in a sexual relationship with Keith? Was she happy about it? Mad? Jealous? Shoulder shrug? Did she feel bad for Lauren and blame herself for it? Did it make her more “all in” with Keith’s insanity?
I think Lauren and Keith hid their relationship from Nancy for many years. I tried to stay out of that kind of thing so I’m not sure. I would say to myself “I don’t know, I don’t want to know, I don’t care.” (Which was pretty dumb). What I can say is I never saw Nancy feel bad for anyone ever. Nancy was always about Nancy first and foremost. She was “all in” with Keith’s insanity from day 1. The best thing that could have happened to Lauren was Nancy going to jail. Her having distance from Nancy for a few years could be life-changing for her I feel.
– In one of your replies, you came down pretty hard on Nancy. Yet, you seemed to keep trying to save Nancy and get her away from Keith. What was your relationship like with Nancy? Keith, Clare and Nancy seemed to use money as a way to ensnare people. (Nancy’s loan to Toni. Free ESP classes. Everything Clare did) Did they use this approach on you?
I did keep trying to save Nancy. My mind couldn’t accept the reality of who she was even though it stared me in the face every day. She was extremely charming and manipulative. I wanted so badly to believe she was good and think we had a friendship. Unfortunately, she was a merciless user of people and yes Keith, Clare, and Nancy used money to ensnare me. What they would do is provide all these non-cash benefits. They paid for my car, I lived in a company owned townhouse, Clare’s foundation paid for childcare, etc. Once they had control over every area of my whole life they would slowly put the screws in to enforce compliance. Text-book coercive control tactics.
– What do you think happened with Kristin Snyder? Why do you think Ed Kinum refuses to talk about it?
It’s hard to talk about Kristin Snyder because I’d like to see her family have peace. Especially her younger sister Kim. I’ve gone back and forth in my mind on this over the years. Do I speak the truth of what I think or do I let it all rest for the greater good? I committed to answering all questions here, candidly, so here goes. I think there is a high probability Kristin did not kill herself during the NXIVM training. I was involved in the investigation when she first disappeared and thereafter. There were many, many things that did not add up. I’ll leave it at that. However, one thing is certain. Kristin was NOT pregnant with Keith’s baby. That is total fiction. She never met Keith, Keith never knew her, and the person who told that story has a history of mental illness institutionalization and a pretty serious criminal record. She came up with that 15 years after the fact and it contradicted her witness interviews at the time of Kris’s disappearance. I feel that was really a cruel thing to say and do to Kim Snyder. Kim seemed to spiral badly after that. As for Ed Kinum, he’s an uncomplicated, nice guy. My guess is he’s trying to move on and help others move on.
– What do you think the chances are that Keith had a “murder for hire” contact? Why did he have a pattern of telling people that “he’s had people killed for his beliefs”? How many times did you hear him say this to people?
I think the chances Keith had a “murder for hire” contact are zero. I never heard him say that except in the video Susan Dones made. Looking back at it all, I think during those meetings with Keith and the NXIVM 9 Susan Dones really held Keith’s feet to the fire in a way he’d rarely experienced in life. He blurted that out to fake brag about his power and intimidate her. A classic narcissist move. For Susan it must have been terrifying, she didn’t know Keith well personally and god knows it took years for many of us to understand his personality type and what we were all dealing with. In those days Keith RARELY lost his composure and showed his true self like that.
– From the beginning of your relationship with Keith, did he only expect you to be in an intimate relationship with him? How did his expectations change over time? Did you have boyfriends or hookups over the years when you were involved with him? If either yes or no, did you need to (or would you have needed to) keep it a secret?
My relationship with Keith was always a friendship/brother/father figure/boss type of thing. It was never a romance. On rare occasions over the years, he would line bend me into physical intimacy which I always felt weird about and tried to keep secret. Getting pregnant was pretty shocking. I wasn’t under any dictates of monogamy or that kind of thing. Keith’s whole concept of women making “Vows” to him was something he developed later when he went off the rails into full crazy. I hope you don’t mind, I prefer not to discuss other relationships I had.
– Over the first few months of ESP, there was a large African American gentleman who participated a lot, and went to many/most of the classes. One day, he was gone. I asked Nancy where he disappeared to and she blew it off by saying, “Oh, he was a leveler.” What was the real story of why he left? Do you remember his first name?
I do not remember his name but that was the Albany County District Attorney, David Soares’ brother-in-law. He was the President or a big shot for a regional chain of radio stations as I recall. Clear Channel maybe? I don’t know why he left. A lot of people took trainings, liked them, then moved on to do other things. Nancy always criticized anyone who stopped taking classes for whatever reason. If you didn’t want to dedicate your life to Nancy and her mission you were irrevocably flawed in some way. I’m not surprised she called him a “leveler” to you.
– BTW – you really need to write a book about your experiences. You have the answers and stories that everyone wants to hear.
Thank you for your interest in my story! Trials & Truths has a big vision long term. There are a lot of important legal cases and issues we are researching to write about. Let’s see how it goes. If there is reader demand, I will keep writing about NXIVM too.
– Kristin K
It just came back to me: David Soares’ brother-in-law’s name – Al Vincente.
– Kristin K
Kristin — It has been speculated that the reason David Soares and other local law enforcement ignored Keith’s crimes is that they were bribed and/or blackmailed in some way. If so, how? Bronfman money or even “sex cult perks.”
I don’t know of any direct bribes or any kind of “sex for services”. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
NXIVM had perhaps the most ruthless and unethical attorneys in Albany (O’Connell and Aronowitz) who would do anything for a payday. Anything. They were intelligent and capable too.
I know that Soares’ brother-in-law and his sisters had taken some NXIVM courses which may have positively predisposed him in the beginning. Then in 2005, Roger Stone was hired by NXIVM along with other lobbyists and political consultants to orchestrate a deep influence campaign amongst New York Capitol politicians to try and normalize NXIVM (Or so he said).
David Soares and then-Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno were targeted. Donations were made both directly and to party-endorsed candidates amongst the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, and the Working Families Party. You would be shocked at how much sway that can have.
The Bronfmans were amongst the wealthiest people in the Capital Region. They flew Joe Bruno on their jet. Everyone wanted them in their pocket. I remember one time them flying Bruno, Stone, and some other political heavyweights down to Mar-a-Lago to play golf with Trump. Nancy did an EM session with Bruno on the way down because he was nervous about his golf game!
– Kristin K
You never know what will influence a corrupt politician. It could be money, sex, or the ability to sink a two-foot putt.
Thanks Kristin
As powerpacked of a comment as we have seen. Just wow.
John Tighe on Frankreport wrote:
“After meeting with Clare Bronfman, Soares brought in NXIVM loyalist Kristin Keeffe to work at his office to help put together criminal charges against O’Hara. I have to wonder how often he brought in untrained civilians to put together a case against an innocent local businessman.
Although Keeffe is fully detoxed now – and although she provided valuable information to the prosecutors who took El Gordo down – at the time she worked in Soares’ office”
How did you and Joe reconcile this, that must have been tough? That you two are working together is really something special.
(I can’t wait for your “Part 2” reply to my earlier questions and I was trying to hold back before asking more questions, but I just can’t lol)
Oh my gosh, it’s so much worse than just “Clare meeting with Soares.”
At the time David Soares asked me to come into his office to help with preparations for the case against Joe, I was 1 week out from a 10-week course of chemotherapy and radiation for cancer where my doctors had only given me a 50-50 chance of living. I was in extreme pain and puking in the bathrooms at Soares’ office a few times a day. I had a premature “secret” baby who was very sick in the Neo-natal ICU at Albany Med, and I had no health insurance or a dollar to my name. Keith was trying to take my baby, and psychologically destroy me so I succumbed to cancer. He and others subjected me to a whole host of other sadistic and cruel things that were facilitated by all my so-called “friends” in NXIVM.
Despite all this, I was determined to put my head down, do what I was told, and survive to live another day for my son.
THANK GOD the charges against Joe blew up in their faces and were dismissed. Fast forward 5 years and I saw the whole thing happening again with the bogus computer trespass case filed against Joe and John. By then, I had learned my lesson and I was determined to do everything to make sure that case was dropped regardless of the consequences to myself and knowing Joe and John (who knew nothing about my own traumas) hated my guts. I did what it took, and the case was dismissed, although after Joe and I connected I learned he would have gotten the case dropped without me anyway. However, I didn’t know that at the time. I believed I needed to take a big stand – and I did. As a result of my interference, Keith and Clare put a million-dollar team of investigators on me to find me and destroy me. They almost succeeded.
That is a tale for another day.
– Kristin K
Ice-Nine – Go ahead and keep asking questions. I like to ponder things a bit, searching for how best to mine the deeper truths in my replies in a way that is relatable. If I get overwhelmed, I’ll tell you. So, don’t worry about me.
I’m pretty shocked and thrilled at the enthusiasm for my perspective!
– Kristin K
Thank you for all of it. Great information and thank you for being so open about it all.
Keith, twice told me and someone else that he’s “had people killed for his beliefs.” The first time he said it, I pretended like I didn’t care what he said and didn’t give him a reaction. I think he made a point to say it a second time so he could be sure that I got the message. You’re probably correct that he just said it to scare us and have us stop asking so many difficult questions. That was my conclusion at the time. Keith never liked me or trusted me and wanted to run me off.
Al Vincente was one of the only others who did the same questioning. That’s why I noticed when he was no longer a part of ESP.
It was weird – the first month of ESP, everyone questioned everything and it was cool. After that, you were expected to toe the line.
If Keith told you the “I’ve had people killed for my beliefs” way back then he must have REALLY, REALLY hated you. In all my years around Keith, I very rarely saw him drop his “fake, nice, enlightened, joyful-person” act. That is so interesting!
– Kristin K
Everyone kept telling me that Keith was great and would work with me on whatever I needed. But, he ignored me for the first couple of months I was around. The first time he gave me the time of day, he stopped me in the hall and asked me, “Why are you here?” Without skipping a beat, I said, “I want to be issueless.” He looked at me and walked away.
Two other times, he went out of his way to publicly embarrass me. The only time he ever “helped” me, he simply told me I have low self esteem.
I don’t think he liked that Nancy, Toni, and Pam all liked me. I’m extremely grateful he didn’t want me around. It helped me not get sucked in.
Consider yourself extremely fortunate.
– Kristin K
Kristin and Joe; thank you for everything you have done and are doing. I have a question for Kristin. I do not know much about Joe/Jake and I intend to rectify that.
Kristin, at the beginning of The Vow, Season 1 Episode 5, there is a clip with you talking to camera. I appreciate you were in the midst of defending what you believed sacred at that time, and it is a testament to your character that you are speaking out now. Might I ask, Kristin, if you could talk to the Kristin who spoke out in defence of the group you were speaking on behalf of, what would you say to her now?
Godspeed with your website!
Hi!
I had a really challenging experience working with The Vow. I didn’t know Mark Vicente would steal all the NXIVM company footage (including footage involving me) and sell it to HBO; nor did I know he was secretly tape recording and filming all my conversations with him (and everyone else in NXIVM) after he resigned from NXIVM to covertly insert us all into his film project. FYI That’s how I and many others ended up in The Vow. Against our will.
As far as I know, no one knew in advance. No one knew the extent that Mark was orchestrating his reality TV show comeback from the moment he left NXIVM to reposition his public relations persona from perpetrator to hero.
I bring it up because it’s been so deeply traumatizing to me, as bad as any abuse I suffered in NXIVM. In some ways, it was worse. So, when you ask me about my scenes in The Vow, I feel a conflict beyond the subject matter of your question.
Nevertheless, I thought all day about how to respond to your question appropriately. You wrote, “Kristin if you could talk to the Kristin who spoke out in defence of the group you were speaking on behalf of, what would you say to her now?”
First, I would say, “Do not take all the injustices of the world onto yourself personally.” For me, I was really troubled from a very young age about things like the Vietnam War, the legacy of slavery, and how the Holocaust happened. Like, these things were a constant non-compute that I thought about all the time. It made me very vulnerable to NXIVM’s “solutions”. My advice to my younger self would be “Do good things, in good ways, for good reasons, to make a good living. If everyone in the world had that ethic, the world would be a great place. If you do that, your contribution will be larger than you imagine. You don’t need to deconstruct or understand bigger-picture world affairs. Good to the fourth power is more than enough.”
I’d also say, “When you hear people of influence and power in your life spout conspiracy theories, drop what you are doing and reevaluate. Adherence to conspiracy theories is a sign of paranoia and narcissism. Narcissism and psychopathy are the bane of healthy human relations. Take it as the most serious warning sign of your life! You may need to pull up stakes immediately.”
Finally, I’d say “Never forget, two wrongs don’t make a right.” In my experience with cults or in politics, devious people are adept at pointing out the wrongdoing of opposing parties as a way to deflect or distract from their own wrongdoing. Don’t be fooled. If someone is doing bad or has done bad, any bad done to them is irrelevant. When I was in NXIVM, Keith would attract very bad people into his orbit who did bad things to him and NXIVM. Then he would point to those bad actions by others and deflect away from anyone evaluating his own conduct. I think in a large part he did this deliberately and it was an extremely effective deflection/control method.
I hope that gives you an appropriate answer. Thank you for inquiring,
– Kristin K
Thank you Kristin. You fielded this question with great dignity and you have shed some light on some of your private struggles, and I appreciate how you took up the mantle in answering. These are all very powerful lessons you illustrate in how to challenge the draw a questionable belief has upon an individual and addresses many of the dynamics that maintain a hold. Thank you
This is such a deep reply, I keep re-reading it. I hope you will continue to comment on our site. 🙂
– Kristin K
“who did bad things to him ”
How?
The phrase “Gaslighting” comes to mind.
I also was wondering that. And wondering if they really did bad things, or Keith made it out to be bigger than it was? I remember Keith being paranoid that people would be doing bad things to keep him quiet and stop “the mission.”
There’s a long list of sordid characters Keith attracted to himself. Not everyone who went against Keith or NXIVM was a good person.
One example was a guy named Yuri Plyam who had been Keith’s “friend” for years. He was the commodities trader through which Keith lost all that money and he was a partner with the Bronfmans in the Los Angeles real estate project that Keith put together. When I got involved in the Bronfman’s litigation against Yuri what came out in discovery was jaw-dropping. The amount Yuri was stealing and had been lying about the whole time, pretending to be Keith and the Bronfman’s friend, was quite shocking.
After I went through many scenarios like that with Keith, the Bronfmans, etc. over many years, a pattern emerged. I saw that Keith, in his impulsive lunacy, was actively creating these situations for himself to keep his wealthy supporters constantly thinking he was a victim/martyr. And for sport. I don’t think of this as gaslighting, which I experienced a lot of too. Gaslighting is more like a situation where I say: “Keith, I saw you do this thing” – and he responds: “No you didn’t. You’re misremembering.”
– Kristin K
How can such a BS artist captivate so many women?. What aspect of his personality was so swooning, where they not only fought over him, but SHARED HIM FREELY with each other?????
Did you ever find out who hired those investigators?
You said you and your son danced …..Keith is his father, right? I think? Has KR ever been in his life?
Are you branded? How many are?
Hi FMN –
I’m going to reply to this comment of yours first, then go back to your comments on the other articles and reply to them too. I read your links and have been doing a little research on the various cases and legal arguments therein.
“How can such a BS artist captivate so many women?. What aspect of his personality was so swooning, where they not only fought over him, but SHARED HIM FREELY with each other?????”
When I met Keith, I was only 20 years old. I had recently dropped out of college and was living pretty isolated reading philosophy, comparative religious studies, and working three jobs (I delivered pizza, waitressed, and sold t-shirts at a kiosk to support myself.) My family was very upset with me for dropping out of college and had cut me off, which didn’t matter a lot because I had always been neglected and abused by them. I had zero real friends.
Keith was the first person who took an interest in me in my life. He is highly intelligent, and before he descended into abject lunacy in later years, he was a lot of fun to be around and extremely industrious. However, he was ALWAYS an abuser, but in his earlier years, he did that in secret. I was never in love with Keith or swooned over him. He was more like a brother/friend who line-bent me into physical intimacy on rare occasions. Which I always felt weird about but went along with anyway. Back then, I strived to not judge people and I didn’t have the presence of mind to consider evaluating a person’s actions as a view into their values and soul. I didn’t pay any attention to what Keith did outside of our friendship. Unfortunately.
I remember Moira Penza asking me, “Why did you get involved with Keith?!? Like, what were you thinking?” I was like, “Moira, I wasn’t thinking. I was focused on eastern mysticism and philosophy! I didn’t think much about Keith and his life.” She didn’t relate – lol. At that time Keith was getting advanced certifications in Neuro-linguistic Programming and perfecting his understanding of hypnosis and group manipulation. I saw him pursue those studies, but I was kind of oblivious as to what they portended – that he was practicing all these techniques on me directly. I was very susceptible. I think this was a big factor.
In later years after the founding of NXIVM, you can’t imagine how much effort and expertise Nancy Salzman invested into luring women into Keith’s world. She was highly skilled and very disarming. Without Nancy, Keith would have gone nowhere. Over 20 years with Nancy’s efforts and the Bronfman and other VIP’s money and imprimatur Keith was able to build a mythos around himself that I think was very compelling to many women.
Even though it was all a facade.
********************
“Did you ever find out who hired those investigators?”
Pam Nichols of O’Connell and Aronowitz hired the investigators supervised by Clare Bronfman. Clare either paid them directly or through “loans” to NXIVM.
********************
“You said you and your son danced …..Keith is his father, right? I think? Has KR ever been in his life?”
Keith is my son’s father, and he has never been in his life. When we left NXIVM, Keith found us on four different occasions, three of which we literally had to pack our bags, leave everything behind and run within 90 minutes. The fourth time the FBI and EDNY were already investigating, and they said, “Don’t worry – we will protect you.” I had senior agents’ cell phone numbers to call 24/7 and a direct line to the local State Police. Fortunately, a warrant was issued for Keith’s arrest a few weeks later after he had fled to Mexico.
Keith never cared about us, he only wanted to punish and torture us for sport. Hunting us was another of his games.
I worked hard to shield my son from most of it, but there were some things I couldn’t. Hence, the dancing around the house after Keith’s conviction. Now that he’s older, we try to laugh about it all! Fortunately, I think it’s made him a bit of an adventurous, old soul, and he has a lot of gratitude for things.
********************
“Are you branded? How many are?”
I am not branded. I left Keith shortly after the rollout of SOP and Keith telling me he wanted to “create a blackmail MLM.” That was two years before DOS. I don’t know how many women were branded.
-Kristin K
No need to take a position. Just getting some thoughts stirring😁
The moderator should remain unbiased anyway.
Debate leads to truth, or it should. It’s sad no one engages any more.
I love what you are saying, and I totally agree. We are a small venture, but we hope to engage people in discussion and debate in a meaningful and expansive long-term way.
– Kristin K
Hi Kristin – So pumped to be asking you questions. Like Ice-Nine, I’m going to come out of the gate strong, but I’ll settle down.
This first question has been bothering me for awhile and you just touched on part of it. You typed “One Keith never cared about us, he only wanted to punish and torture us for sport. Hunting us was another of his games.” Was this what was really going on when Toni broke up with Keith? Why did he write her those pathetic, groveling, asinine letters? And, – most importantly – why did the inner circle defend him on his mission to destroy her? To me, that was an easy and obvious red flag about his character and his sanity. I don’t get it from Keith’s standpoint. I don’t get it from Nancy and Pam C’s standpoint. What did you see? In the moment, what were your feelings about what was happening? Did anybody within the inner circle try to talk sense into him about it? Did you really think Toni was some special person who was supposed to have an avatar baby with Keith? Or did you just play along with it? Looking back, what are your current thoughts on the aftermath of Toni breaking up with Keith? (that whole thing was when I realized everyone was a fucking lunatic – I happily ejected and never looked back)
Nutjob!!!
I am so thrilled you are here. I’m giving some pretty deep and detailed answers to questions. If I don’t respond tonight it will be tomorrow for sure.
– Kristin K
“Create a Blackmail MLM”. He described it perfectly.
His admittance is comforting, in a way. He was evil out of will, not ignorance. He doesn’t deserve an ounce of mercy.
Oh, I recognize a kindred spirit in your words. I was 17 when I met him; 18 when we became a “couple” (line bending and lies abounded); and 22 when I was finally able to walk away from him. He deliberately targeted vulnerabilities that you describe of yourself – I could have described myself at the time in very similar circumstances. And your description of Raniere as ” the first person who took an interest in me in my life. He is highly intelligent, and … was a lot of fun to be around and extremely industrious. However, he was ALWAYS an abuser.” – so accurate. Although I made the mistake of thinking for a time that I was in love with him or perhaps, more so, that he was in love with me and I was therefore obliged to return the sentiment. It was around the time that I realized that obligation was all in my head that I started my exit.
I am glad you are free of it all and he is locked up where he can no longer reach you or your son. I hope that remains true of all the puppets whose strings he pulls as well. Thank you for sharing your experiences so openly and eloquently. My hope, whenever I share any of my experiences with Keith, is to take the burden of isolation off anyone who may have had similar experiences and shine a light that may clear up remaining doubts and confusion. You are doing that here. It can be daunting (I was pretty shaken back in 2011 when James Odato from the Albany Times Union tracked me down with questions about Keith whom I hadn’t seen in 15 years), but your words are appreciated.
I’d like to ask how your relationship was/is with Toni Natalie? She said many things to me that I now question – like stating that you and your son stayed with her for a short while in fleeing from Keith. She implied that she still had contact with you, and once even said you wanted to meet with me. While I respect that she had her own battle to fight with Keith, I pretty much stopped communicating with her when she implied I had some obligation to others because of my choices with Keith (I believe she was referring to my leaving him). Luckily, I have learned enough in my life to say “hell no” to that red flag. Grown ass man responsible for his own nasty behavior no matter how mock “devastated” he may have pretended to be by my leaving..
And just for clarification, I comment as L on FrankReport as well.
Dear L –
Oh my gosh, we are definitely kindred spirits! I’m so thrilled you are here – Welcome!
I’ve reread your comment several times. I’ve hardly known what to say. Thank you for your compassion for my son and me – and your edification of my assessments of Keith.
“My hope, whenever I share any of my experiences with Keith, is to take the burden of isolation off anyone who may have had similar experiences and shine a light that may clear up remaining doubts and confusion. You are doing that here. It can be daunting (I was pretty shaken back in 2011 when James Odato from the Albany Times Union tracked me down with questions about Keith whom I hadn’t seen in 15 years), but your words are appreciated.”
Thank you so much for your appreciation. What you have been doing is exactly what I am trying to do here, yet in a way that connects to current events and legal cases. It’s a hard needle to thread but I have high hopes. I hope you can follow along and add your commentary. It’s desperately needed. What you and I have been through I think is not uncommon at all. Yet it’s not something widely reported on, discussed, or analyzed anywhere. I’m trying to connect the dots about people like Keith to a wider cross-section of society.
I do not have any contact with Toni Natalie, nor will I ever again. Several high-profile ex-NXIVM people who were at one time her friend or ally have reported to me the same sentiment. I’ll leave it at that.
Hello, Kristin, I’ll take you up on your awesome offer to ask you anything. I have also read some of the articles here and intend to be a regular reader. I think you and JJ have a good concept going. OK, so here’s just a warmup lol:
1. Who was The Rat?
2. You wrote on Frank Report that keith tried to kill you. Was it through cancer or something else, what did he do?
3. Do you think Nancy knows she was running a cult while she was in charge? In other words, was she a victim or perpetrator? I really don’t understand her. She was an expert in NLP, so did keith use this against her or something?
4. What was your reaction to the trial, and the verdict, and sentencing for all involved? Did the others get a fair sentence? Is there anything you’d like to say to the others?
5. Did you read Frank Report and the commenters all this time, are there any misconceptions about you that you’d like to clear up? What did you think of The Vow?
Hi Ice-Nine, Welcome!
1. Who was The Rat?
I do not know. I always thought The Rat was fake. Someone who knew about the Cami-Dani-Adrian situation and was mad at Keith for a moment. My best guess was Karen U.
2. You wrote on Frank Report that keith tried to kill you. Was it through cancer or something else, what did he do?
Yes, I went through very, very severe deprivation of medical care. I was literally minutes from death on (3) different occasions. It was sadistic and cruel in the extreme. It’s a miracle I’m alive.
3. Do you think Nancy knows she was running a cult while she was in charge? In other words, was she a victim or perpetrator? I really don’t understand her. She was an expert in NLP, so did keith use this against her or something?
Above all else, Nancy was obsessed with herself. That was her driving force and Keith played to her narcissism. She loved the money and the power over people’s lives. She is a master of self-promotion. Anytime I had a meeting with her or a therapy session the first 20 minutes would involve her talking about herself and her latest accomplishments, and the newest super wealthy or famous person she’d enrolled. Before I opened my mouth she would pre-emptively establish her superiority. Literally every time.
Nancy did many bad things she could have been prosecuted for and was not. After the radicalization of NXIVM via the Society of Protectors sweeping through the organization I went to Nancy weekly over a course of months to discuss all the illegal and unethical things happening and the insanity of SOP. She didn’t care. Sometimes she would laugh. Definitely a perpetrator.
4. What was your reaction to the trial, and the verdict, and sentencing for all involved? Did the others get a fair sentence? Is there anything you’d like to say to the others?
During the trial, I was on eggshells. It was scary. I was worried about what Keith would do to me if he was acquitted. Although I didn’t testify, he (and the other defendants) knew from the discovery in the case the depth that I had cooperated and provided evidence. I thought, “If he gets off they’re coming for me first”. Moira Penza and the FBI team called me about 10 minutes after the verdict came in. My son and I cheered and danced around the house. By that point, we had been living in hiding from Keith, Clare, Nancy, (and others) for 5 years. It meant “Finally! Freedom!”
Sentencing:
Keith: Objectively, I think he deserved 10-15 years. Personally, I am relieved he’s never getting out of prison.
Nancy: Nancy got off easy in my opinion, but she did plead guilty first.
Clare: I’m not sure what to think of Clare’s sentence. Triple the sentencing guidelines was pretty harsh. Clare’s pre-sentencing memorandum where she made her case for her sentence was a disaster though. I thought she came off as a megalomaniac and took no responsibility. I blame her attorneys for that too. Like, what were these people all thinking?
Lauren: I’m glad Lauren got probation. She testified and threw herself on her sword without holding back. Without Lauren’s testimony, god knows what would have happened.
Allison: I feel sorry for Allison although I never knew her well. I would have preferred to see her get 18 months.
Kathy: I’m glad she got probation.
I don’t have anything to say to the defendants. With the exception of Allison, I warned them all For Years. Keith, Nancy, Clare, Kathy, all the attorneys, members of the Executive Board, and others – that NXIVM had become a criminal enterprise and they were all going to end up in jail.
5. Did you read Frank Report and the commenters all this time, are there any misconceptions about you that you’d like to clear up? What did you think of The Vow?
No, I did not read the Frank Report all this time nor the commenters. I’m looking forward to people’s questions. As for The Vow, that’s a topic for another day. 🙂
– Kristin K
WOW Kristin! All of that is new stuff and super interesting, esp. about Nancy. Wonderful too that Moira called you personally. It’s just awesome you and your son are safe and seemingly in a good place now, physically and mentally. OK, well since I’ve got you here ready to answer and not too many others are jumping in…
How did keith fake it through the Mega IQ test ? I was told that a bunch of people spent weeks in a library figuring it all out. So just what happened there?
Above you wrote, “…radicalization of NXIVM via the Society of Protectors” – So just what were these SOP guys doing? I thought it was just kind of silly men’s only club that did rather lame stuff and spent too much money traveling to Albany to tell stupid jokes about women. You make it sound like they were up to no good shit. Examples?
I’ve read the entire transcript between you and Barbara (yes, I have that little of a life lol). Shocking. So a few questions from that:
– You seem convinced Emiliano was going to go down. Do you still have the emails about Keith and Emiliano planning to lure Barbara, Toni, Susan, and Kim to Mexico, have them falsely arrested, imprisoned, raped, and tortured? How did he escape arrest, did he turn and help the prosecution, or just too many political connections? He did some fucked up shit and got away with it. So what’s going on there?
– You said that Ben knew about Dani’s imprisonment for at least six months and did nothing. You told Barbara this, but how did you know that Ben knew? Did you read the emails Daniela sent to Ben? Do you still have them? She and her mother were locked in those rooms starting in 2010. Did you know about it at the time, and if so, did you do anything to try and get them out?
– Using your legal expertise, why do you think nothing has been done to Michelle Salzman or Sara Bronfman?
-What was your reaction when the branding article came out in the NYTimes, did you think that finally this was the beginning of the end? With Catherine O involved did you think that would help and did you talk to her?
Again, thank you! I think that’s it for me unless some follow up questions come around. Literally been waiting years for some of these answers LOL.
Ice-Nine!
All great questions and I have answers. It’s a little late for me tonight, I’m on the East Coast. I will get back to you on this tomorrow.
Best,
-Kristin K
Hi Ice-Nine –
This is Part 1 of my response. It’s so long that I will continue where I left off with a Part 2 tomorrow.
How did Keith fake it through the Mega IQ test? I was told that a bunch of people spent weeks in a library figuring it all out. So just what happened there?
I DO NOT believe Keith faked the Mega test. There are a lot of fictional stories like that circulating. Before Keith was a “cult leader” I was around him when he would talk with some of the members of the Mega Society and went to their events. They took him seriously. Including the founder. You have to understand, in terms of raw brain power – Keith has it. It’s his psychopathic personality traits that were his downfall. Here is a link to the Wikipedia page on Psychopathy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
“Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.”
“Impulsive and Irresponsible Lifestyle: impulsivity, sensation-seeking and risk-taking, irresponsible and unreliable behavior, financially parasitic lifestyle and lack of realistic, long-term goals.”
I think all these descriptions apply to Keith. If he weren’t a psychopath, in terms of intellect and creativity, he’d probably be a billionaire.
********************
“Above you wrote, “…radicalization of NXIVM via the Society of Protectors” – So just what were these SOP guys doing? I thought it was just kind of silly men’s only club that did rather lame stuff and spent too much money traveling to Albany to tell stupid jokes about women. You make it sound like they were up to no good shit. Examples?”
SOP was a for-profit business created by Keith and Mark Vicente. It wasn’t a club. It was a highly profitable men’s only education. (There were three other founders too, but they did not have rank in the organization or much influence.) Keith and Mark started teaching this “education” to all the men in NXIVM throughout the country and they kept the teachings secret from women. It spread like wild fire. Every man took it and not one protested. They jumped on the ideas so fast your head would spin. In the summer of 2013, they released an SOP program for women called “SOP Complete”. I didn’t take trainings and wasn’t part of the educational hierarchy, but I started to hear about it indirectly. At V-Week in 2013 the SOP “High Council” led by Mark did a presentation about it and I started to talk to women about what was going on in the trainings, as well as asking Keith and Nancy.
I don’t know where to start…
Here are some highlights:
The principles of SOP were that “Women were like fleas jumping from host to host looking for better opportunities.” “Women can’t get anything done.” “Women are raised as coddled princesses and have no concept of reality.” “Women can’t keep their word.” And they promoted there was nothing wrong with men being polygamous, but women should be monogamous. I kid you not. Witnessing the radicalization of everyone I knew to this gross misogyny, literally overnight, was perhaps the most horrifying experience of my life. Despite all I had already been through.
During that V-Week, at one point Mark was gathering all his people together in front of the Lodge and I learned they were all doing what was referred to as a “readiness drill”. Everyone in the whole SOP world had to be on standby at a certain time each day and when called by their group leader needed to text back “Ready!” Ready for what? God knows. Mark and the horde were all assembled to prove “We are ready!”
They promoted there was one exception to the “women are fleas” generalization. A type of woman who was different and not a flea. Southeast Asian women. Yes, I am being serious!!! At V-Week they did a whole presentation on this led by a somewhat famous actress named Olivia Cheng for a group called “One Asian.” They presented that all women are fleas except Southeast Asian women who have the best combination of male and female traits. The Southeast Asian woman of One Asian, led by Olivia Cheng went on to espouse they hoped to build a network of 1 million Southeast Asian woman in One Asian to change the world. Because “only they had the unique qualities to bring change”.
I remember thinking, so “Women are fleas, except for Southeast Asian women? So what are they the ‘Master Race’? It was radical misogyny and eugenics all wrapped up in one. As shocking and horrifying as it was at that time there was a part of me that stepped out of myself for a moment and thought “I always wanted to know how the Holocaust could have happened. This must have been what it was like? Hitler comes to power, you’re a regular working class person, you think he will be good for the economy – your not paying close attention – and then BOOM you learn he’s persecuting Jews and euthanizing the mentally ill, and you are like WHAT?! Yet every person around you is embracing it.” Like, every person.
I was literally sitting there with all my so-called friends and everyone is clapping and laughing about radical misogyny and a master race theory. Of all the things I experienced in NXIVM that was the worst.
I was so sure the whole thing would end in violence, fast, and with SOP alone so many civil rights laws were being broken in New York State. It amazes me there aren’t thousands of hours of true crime broadcasts and documentaries deconstructing this whole debacle online.
Yet, despite what you would think were its obvious shortcomings, SOP as a company was hugely successful for four and a half years. It was a hot product. Millions of dollars worth of trainings were sold with big revenue going to the founders and commissions to the salespeople. It turned out men were eager to believe women were fleas and the reason for all the unfortunate things in their lives. And the female partners of these men were eager to go along. Although One Asian failed. No one bought into the whole “Southeast Asian Women” were the master race of humanity.
If you want to understand why women got involved in DOS this is the answer. You teach a woman she is a subservient inferior flea week after week, month after month, year after year, (for 5 years) she might agree to anything if she thought it provided a path to her psychological redemption.
********************
“– You seem convinced Emiliano was going to go down. Do you still have the emails about Keith and Emiliano planning to lure Barbara, Toni, Susan, and Kim to Mexico, have them falsely arrested, imprisoned, raped, and tortured? How did he escape arrest, did he turn and help the prosecution or just have too many political connections? He did some fucked up shit and got away with it. So what’s going on there?”
Keith TOLD ME all these things and I saw some emails that were not dispositive. I reported this all to the authorities and the government investigated. I now think Keith told me these things to threaten ME more than anything else. That was his style. I had been trying to leave since 2010 and as far as I know, I was the only person that continually confronted Keith and attempted to stand up to him, sometimes on a daily basis. He wanted to frighten me into submission.
I knew Emiliano a little bit and I found him extremely kind-hearted and humble. I knew his sister and mother a little too and they were the same.
The government was never going to go easy on Emiliano. They drilled me every which way from Sunday on all that transpired. I think the evidence wasn’t there and all the publicity around this was based on things Keith told me that probably hadn’t happened.
– Kristin K
I am utterly GOBSMACKED. To my knowledge, ONE ASIAN has never been reported on much and SOP never to that extent. I cannot wait until Part 2 of your answer.
Just one quick follow up: Did you meet then Marilyn Vos Savant at the Mega meetings, and if so, what did she think of keith? She’s one of my favorite women ever.
Ice-Nine!
Oh my, I have a whole thing I am writing to answer you about everything that happened with Daniela and her mom. It’s a heartbreak. It’s hard for me to talk about but I will go there.
As for SOP and One Asian – I really thought there would be a 10-part documentary by someone about these things. Hundreds of people went along with it. HUNDREDS. Like, where is the analysis? If anyone wanted to understand sexism and racism in our society, it is the ultimate jumping-off point.
I never met Marilyn but in the 90s Keith was very friendly with her boyfriend and founder of the Mega Society, Ronald Hoeflin.
– Kristin K
Thanks, Kristin K
“One Asian was led by a somewhat famous actress named Olivia Cheng”. Someone on the FR said One Asian was first offered to another Kristin K — the more famous actress Kristin Kreuk who turned down the job. Had Kreuk become suspicious of Keith’s intentions so wouldn’t front One Asian or join his harem or DOS? How did she escape Keith’s clutches when she seemed Keith’s ideal type?
Did the SOP misogynistic teachings manifest in the men mistreating their female fleas? In Seduced, India said there was lots of partner-swapping. SOP taught that men were polygamous so it seems to fit the program.
It’s totally not true about One Asian being offered to Kristin Kreuk. A lot of false things circulate about NXIVM trying to link every bad thing to a famous person for clickbait.
Kristin Kreuk had nothing to do with Keith ever and only met him a couple of times. She dropped out in 2012. I don’t know exactly why, I think it had to do with the “Secrets of NXIVM” expose done by the Albany Times Union but that’s just a guess. I heard about her departure from Mark Hildreth, her former boyfriend who I was friendly with. He basically said, “She was spooked by the negative publicity” and broke up with him.
Kristin Kreuk was a super VIP in NXIVM. Keith wouldn’t have dared try any shit with her. All that conjecture is complete garbage.
– Kristin K
YES. The SOP misogynist teachings led to men mistreating women. Times a thousand! It was really horrible. Women were so degraded and it went on for years and years.
– Kristin K
Hello Kristin! While you consider what you may or may not decide to respond to about Dani’s imprisonment, her escape, and drive to Mexico with you and Hector, I have some other lighter, funner questions. So, I have been staying aside, letting everyone else get some questions in. However, some folks here have been a little rude in my opinion demanding thorough responses to things you might not want to discuss or are just too busy. Screw them. And me, too! If you don’t want to answer, don’t lol. OK Juicy stuff…
1. Jenifer Aniston. Gerard Butler. Other celebrities. How often did they come, what fun things can you tell us about what went on? Were there parties at their homes (There’s been mention of it, but no real stories behind it)?
2. What good stuff happened to and fro on Branson’s jet to Necker Island? Was Branson ever involved much with NXIVM? I’m guessing Sara B was all over him, but you said you aren’t going comment on that type of salacious nonsense. So, proceed as you may lol.
3. During the trial when Moira (or was it Tanya?) was reading the texts from keith about the taste of his semen, how men masturbate together lol, and how his penis was a half inch bigger than Robbie’s, and all the other stupid stuff he was saying. I know it was in the context of keith abusing someone, but still, I hope keith’s humiliation brought you a smile. Over on FR, we sure have a good time with it.
4. Do you have any tales of just stupid nonsense he would come up with, or say and do, that hasn’t been out there yet?
Thank you. And these questions were inspired in part by a nice Sangiovese.
Ice-nine-
It was I who facilitated the FBI getting a copy of Cami’s WhatsApp chats with Keith. If not for me, they would not have been part of the evidence in Keith’s prosecution. Although I knew their general context, I had no idea about the specifics.
Nothing about Keith’s texts with Cami ever brought me a smile. Tonight, after revisiting this, I’ll probably have nightmares.
-Kristin K
Oh my gosh I am so sorry. I am taking your plight for granted. Please forgive me. Do not answer anything and ignore.
No worries, Ice-Nine.
Here is a sampling of some of the enthusiastic questions/comments that we received from readers of Frank Report:
“This might seem like a funny suggestion but it’s actually an earnest one… so many of the big pieces of Nxivm and Keith and the slave ring have been reported on – it would be really interesting to hear more of the small. Just a day in the life. Just an average day in Albany. What was THAT like?”
*AND*
“Whoohoo!!!
*AND*
Also, extraordinary comments, congrats on your escape. You wrote some powerful stuff there, and also some juicy stuff too! Celebrities and Billionaires. It’s time to break out the popcorn. This is the area that Frank has been missing. Will def tune in to read about The Rat!
*AND*
Also – the general premise of trialsandtruths.us is going to be very interesting. Looking forward to it!”
*AND*
“Kristin Keeffe is one of the unsung heroes of the Nxivm story. She warned all of them, everyone who got convicted.
Everything she said came true. Stupid Nancy. Worst criminal because she did not protect her daughter. Now, she stews in Hazelton. How stupid.”
********************
I feel very humbled by the enthusiasm and am very much looking forward to more discussions!
-Kristin K
I appreciate the time, energy and effort put into this website and your replies. I intend to continue being a reader. I too, would love to read a book by you. Do you now refer to nxivm as a cult, criminal organization or something else? Is that distinction very important to you? Did KR know or suspect you were pregnant when you escaped the group?
Thanks, Darcey, that’s great. I have two articles coming out about the Proud Boys (if you’re familiar with them). The second will draw on my experience in NXIVM. I generally think of NXIVM as a “collective narcissist group” that became an extremist group after the rollout of SOP. I had my son while I was in NXIVM, not after I left. That’s a whole torturous crazy story.